Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

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Jukka Aho
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Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by Jukka Aho » Sun May 03, 2015 11:43 am

Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa:
http://www.ess.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat/2015 ... t-roomassa


znark

Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

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007
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Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by 007 » Mon May 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Roma Tre -yliopiston luokkahuone on niin täynnä väkeä, ettei myöhässä tullut heti tahdo löytää istumapaikkaa.
so.. the bold part is quite a new thing to me. Can someone explain me the use of 'tahdo' in the sentence?
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
"Aina, kun opit uuden sanan, opettele samalla sen monikko!"


AldenG
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Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by AldenG » Mon May 04, 2015 11:37 pm

Ei tahdo here is just an idiomatic usage meaning roughly "almost don't/doesn't/can't..." instead of reflecting (lack of) desire as it would usually do.

I don't know that there's more to explain about it than the fact it gets used that way.

Ei meinaa is often used in a similar way, as well as the positive form, e.g. meinasin luisua ulos tieltä. (Obviously I'm not saying I intended to skid off the road, only that I nearly did so.)
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


007
Posts: 620
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Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by 007 » Tue May 05, 2015 11:06 pm

Let's rephrase the sentence.
Roma Tre -yliopiston luokkahuone on niin täynnä väkeä, ettei tahdo heti löytää istumapaikkaa jos on myöhässä tullut.

my initial problem was with 'tahdo', and since it didn't have its own 'ei', I somehow couldn't get my mind around it (here I thought 'ei' was for 'myöhässä tullut', hence I had difficulty understanding the sentence.) But now the problem is with 'myöhässä tullut'. How 'myöhässä tullut' makes sense if the sentence is written like:

Roma Tre -yliopiston luokkahuone on niin täynnä väkeä, ettei tahdo heti löytää istumapaikkaa myöhässä tullut. I am sure it sounds off. Perhaps 'myöhässä tulleena' makes sense.

So...'myöhässä tullut' is in what form in the sentence? some kind of weird passive form? or just a shortened version of 'jos on myöhässä tullut'?
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
"Aina, kun opit uuden sanan, opettele samalla sen monikko!"


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by AldenG » Wed May 06, 2015 12:06 am

Hmm, interesting point - why indeed don't we link "ei" to "tullut" and then go off the rails later?

The order of "myõhässä tullut" tells us (by experience and reflex) to treat the combination as an adjective and expect a noun like "henkilö/ihminen/opiskelija" as the next word. When we see the adverb "heti" instead, we realize that the adjectival phrase is being used as a noun itself (Cf. three examples in "The good, the bad, and the ugly.")

(The fact that it's "ettei" precludes the remote possibility of the alternate interpretation "ei-myöhässä tullut." I'm not sure whether that would have a hyphen in Finnish.)

The normal elucidation of a phrase like "myöhässä tullut" would be "ihminen, joka on tullut myöhässä." Thus the full rewrite of that half of the sentence would be "ettei ihminen, joka on tullut myöhässä, heti tahdo löytää istumapaikkaa."
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


AldenG
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by AldenG » Wed May 06, 2015 12:30 am

P.s. I don't know where to point you (in terms of rules, sources, etc) on what I'm about to say here, but the shape of that clause was pretty much ordained as soon as we saw "ettei myöhässä." Experience-wise, there's a limited universe of what to expect next:

(xxxx-va) (present participle) e.g. oleva, saapuva, tuleva (+optional noun)
(xxxx-ut) (past participle) e.g. tullut, saapunut (+optional noun)
(xxxx-tu) (passive past participle) e.g.lähetetty, jätetty ...+ noun
saa tulla

-- I'm struggling to think of even the one form that can fit there other than a participle. And as soon as there isn't a full stop after the participle, I guess we know it's being used adjectivally or to stand in for a noun.

So to my way of learning, it's just another of those seemingly countless patterns to soak up.
Last edited by AldenG on Wed May 06, 2015 3:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


Jukka Aho
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed May 06, 2015 12:41 am

AldenG wrote:(The fact that it's "ettei" precludes the remote possibility of the alternate interpretation "ei-myöhässä tullut." I'm not sure whether that would have a hyphen in Finnish.)
The hyphen (or rather, yhdysmerkki, which is semantically a different beast from tavuviiva) would have to be there. What is more, when you use the hyphen to connect words together and the other side is actually a phrase with spaces in it and not just a single word, the correct way to spell it in Finnish is inserting a space between the hyphen and the multi-word phrase. So if the prefix ei- applies to the phrase myöhässä tullut and not just the word myöhässä it would have to be ei- myöhässä tullut, with the space. Compare to art deco -tyylisuunta. (Not art deco-tyylisuunta.)

This is somewhat beside the point, though. Ei-, as a prefix, is a lazy way out when translating English text and encountering the prefix "non-". It is almost always possible to rephrase or reword the sentence in a way that drops the prefix.
znark


007
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:01 pm

Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by 007 » Wed May 06, 2015 7:23 am

Ah...myöhässä tullut is a subject here :lol: Damn I was looking too deep into the sentence.
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
"Aina, kun opit uuden sanan, opettele samalla sen monikko!"


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Suomen kielen kurssit täyttyvät Roomassa

Post by AldenG » Wed May 06, 2015 8:05 am

007 wrote:Ah...myöhässä tullut is a subject here :lol: Damn I was looking too deep into the sentence.
Yeah, well said. That's the heart of the matter.

Regarding "things that can come next," you could still squeeze in a word or maybe a few, as in "ettei myöhässä paikalle saapunut heti tahdo löytää istumapaikkaa," but the expectation and desire to encounter that participle or impersonal verb ("[ei] saa tulla," above) is quite strong and persists as you try to jam other words in first.

I suppose this question or approach of "what can come next at this point" is mostly of interest to people from a programming background, but I think it's important because it must be close to how the subconscious language mind actually works.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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