Trying to find a word

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Rosamunda
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Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:07 am

Re: Trying to find a word

Post by Rosamunda » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:01 pm

More on /r/ and /d/....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism#Finnish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56pYdxRFNTc at 01:13

https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/fon.html
the strong trill [r] is typical of Finnish, but there is considerable individual variation, and [r] is often replaced by the tap [ɾ] especially between vowels in fast speech (me: which would the case in 'puuroa': the /r/ is between a long vowel and a diphthong)

and the English /d/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningenglish/en ... icedconst2 and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_de ... i-alveolar


I agree that it is difficult to see a similarity between the highly rhotacised /r/ in Finnish (the video gives some good examples) but there are plenty of Finns who speak without a strong rhotic /r/ and certainly there are some regions/dialects where it is not standard. Given that an English /d/ can be dental or alveolar there is clearly room for confusion and overlap. I don't think an r->d mutation is impossible.



Re: Trying to find a word

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AldenG
Posts: 3334
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Trying to find a word

Post by AldenG » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:06 pm

Well, plus there's nothing much resembling a common Finnish 'r' in American English.

So you have the pronunciation side. Was this an old person (seems so)? Were her dentures in at the time? Was she shivering in the cold, etc. If I've been engaging in a lot of that typically American pastime of chewing ice, I have trouble with a trilled r myself.

It is likely there was only a single r-flap.

Then you have the perception side. Hearing that bit of articulation in another language, how is a typical American going to try to make sense of it? Well, one this it is NOT is an 'r', so it has to become something else, named or imitated.

Add to that that an American d is often much softer than a standard and characteristically punctilious British d. Sometimes an American 'd' can all but disappear in a word like 'maiden', to the point that non-Anglophone ears may not even catch it.

So no, it's really no stretch at all that an elderly immigrant's gummy vestigial Finnish 'r' could be perceived or remembered as a 'd' by an American, even an Upper Peninsula American if they know no Finnish, or perhaps even if they do know some, in the way that later generations here tend to "know" the ancestral language. There's really nothing but 'd' that could be used to describe the one really distinctive characteristic an American might notice, which is that flap. A true trill would require more thought and would more likely be decoded to 'r'. But a single flap? Not really.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


AldenG
Posts: 3334
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Trying to find a word

Post by AldenG » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:07 pm

So as long as we're choosing up sides, who gets first kickoff?
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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sinikala
Posts: 4993
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:10 pm
Location: Pori, Finland

Re: Trying to find a word

Post by sinikala » Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:17 am

Rosamunda wrote:More on /r/ and /d/....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism#Finnish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56pYdxRFNTc at 01:13

https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/suomi/fon.html
the strong trill [r] is typical of Finnish, but there is considerable individual variation, and [r] is often replaced by the tap [ɾ] especially between vowels in fast speech (me: which would the case in 'puuroa': the /r/ is between a long vowel and a diphthong)

and the English /d/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningenglish/en ... icedconst2 and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_de ... i-alveolar


I agree that it is difficult to see a similarity between the highly rhotacised /r/ in Finnish (the video gives some good examples) but there are plenty of Finns who speak without a strong rhotic /r/ and certainly there are some regions/dialects where it is not standard. Given that an English /d/ can be dental or alveolar there is clearly room for confusion and overlap. I don't think an r->d mutation is impossible.
I'll buy that for a Rollad <-- see what I did? :D
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Rosamunda
Posts: 10640
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:07 am

Re: Trying to find a word

Post by Rosamunda » Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:12 am

There is no /r/ at the end of 'dollar', I end 'dollar' with a schwa /ə/ . AldenG probably says it differently, though even he would not rhotacise an 'r' in final position.

Generally speaking, consonants in the initial position (eg the /d/ in 'dollar') are more likely to be pronounced truly and fully. The phonemic overlap? can occur when the consonant appears between two vowel sounds (eg in the middle of a word) and in fast speech. (That also happens in words like 'letter' where Americans flap the /t/ and the word sounds closer to 'leder' or 'leather'.)


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