use of present participle

[garoowood]

I am soemhow confused about the use of active present participle.
Personally I think it should be used as an adjective like lukeva poika. But I read this sentence in the book "Hän luuli olevansa taivaassa".

Why is the participle used this way? And why this possessive suffix is used here also?

[Rob A.]

I am soemhow confused about the use of active present participle.
Personally I think it should be used as an adjective like lukeva poika. But I read this sentence in the book "Hän luuli olevansa taivaassa".

Why is the participle used this way? And why this possessive suffix is used here also?

I'll give it a try....

First, I think this literally translates as:

"He believed being-himself in-heaven."= "He believed that he is/was in heaven."

It's a bit difficult to analyze in English, as well, but I think what is going on here is that oleva is an adjective describing what "hän luuli"...... that is, "he believed being".....then you get to "he believed being himself"....and then "he believed being himself in heaven."

Well...that's the best I can do... Maybe someone else will jump in....

[Satish]

I am soemhow confused about the use of active present participle.
Personally I think it should be used as an adjective like lukeva poika. But I read this sentence in the book "Hän luuli olevansa taivaassa".

Why is the participle used this way? And why this possessive suffix is used here also?

The construction that you see above is what is referred to as "referative construction" where an että subordinate clause is replaced by a participial construction.
Both "A Grammar Book of Finnish" by Leila White and "Finnish An Essential Grammar" by Fred Karlsson discuss this in detail.

Essentially, the original clause + subordinate clause form would have been:
Hän luuli, että hän oli taivaassa.

The rules for the referential construct are as follows:

1. Että -> Deleted
2. If Subordinate action occurs:
Before main clause or upto the time when the speaker speaks: Subordinate clause verb goes to Active Past Participle in the genitive
At the same time, simultaneously, or after the main clause : Subordinate clause verb goes to Active Present Participle in the genitive
3. If Subordinate Subject is:
Subordinate Subject ≠ Main Subject: Subordinate subject in the genitive
Subordinate Subject = Main Subject: Pronoun deleted, Possessive suffix added onto the participle

So, in this case:
The subordinate action (he was) is at the same time as the main action (he thought): oli -> Active Present Participle in the genitive - olevan
Subord. Subj = Main Subject: hän (pronoun) deleted, nsa (possessive suffix) added onto the participle -> olevan + nsa = olevansa

Therefore: Hän luuli, että hän oli taivaassa. -> Hän luuli olevansa taviaassa. Näin!!!!!

PS. Both books I mentioned have lots of examples of this and other types of contructs. Well worth a look...

[garoowood]

Kiitos paljon!
I found the referential construct in the book

[Rob A.]

Thanks Satish....


I googled "referative construction" and found this GoogleBook:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=St40jai ... =1#PPP1,M1

Excerpt:

"3.2.1 The Referative construction

The referative construction is used in Finnish to contract an affirmative that-clause with verbs such as see, hear, believe and say etc. It represents a syntactic structure which is specfic to the Finnish language and which has no straightforward equivalent in Russian and English..... in Finnish you can choose between a finite verb form and its compact, non-finite counterpart (irrespective of the verb, but in Russian and English it is typical to prefer either a non-infinte or a finite verb form in referative expressions, and a choice between interchangeable variants is quite rare ...."

Besides the referative construction the book discusses two other similar non-finite constructions...temporal...Lukiessaan kirjaa. and final Kiirehdin ehtiäkseni junaan.

....so I guess it shouldn't be surprising native English-speakers have trouble with these kinds of constructions....more reason to try to "think in Finnish"...

[Satish]

Thanks Satish....

Besides the referative construction the book discusses two other similar non-finite constructions...temporal...Lukiessaan kirjaa. and final Kiirehdin ehtiäkseni junaan.

I have seen 4 so far:
1. Referative - Meaning "that....", with Active Present or Active Past Participles in the genitive, functioning as object in main clause
2. Temporal - "When....", with Passive Past Participle in the partitive or 2nd infinitive essive, functioning as adverb of time
3. Modal - "By ...ing ...", with 2nd infinitive instructive, functioning as adverb of manner
4. Final - "In order to...", with 1st infinitive instructive, functioning as adverb of reason

Would love to know if you come across any other!

....so I guess it shouldn't be surprising native English-speakers have trouble with these kinds of constructions....more reason to try to "think in Finnish"...

Well, I think about them like those 'special pieces' you used to get when you got a new Lego set. You use it all the time for a while and then get a bit tired and wait for the next new piece...