"Value" Of High School Grades?

[Rosamunda]

UK students have normally finished A levels by age 18 here I know 20 year olds still in lukio and they are studying a far wider range of subjects but not at A level more like GCSE.

Well, "long" maths in a Finnish lukio is way way way harder than a GCSE

And then look at foreign languages. In the UK students can bluff their way through language GCSEs (using all kinds of technology) and many get A* without being able to speak in coherent sentences. Students taking an A-language in lukio are quite often close to fluent in that language. In fact many finnish lukio students who have taken A1 English master the language better than English teenagers who have it as their mother tongue

[irnbru]

UK students have normally finished A levels by age 18 here I know 20 year olds still in lukio and they are studying a far wider range of subjects but not at A level more like GCSE.

Well, "long" maths in a Finnish lukio is way way way harder than a GCSE

And then look at foreign languages. In the UK students can bluff their way through language GCSEs (using all kinds of technology) and many get A* without being able to speak in coherent sentences. Students taking an A-language in lukio are quite often close to fluent in that language. In fact many finnish lukio students who have taken A1 English master the language better than English teenagers who have it as their mother tongue

Dunno about long maths. Here the lad I help with his lukio homework isn't studying it. His language skills are indeed far better than a lad his age in the UK. But his other assignments are a bit basic for a 20 year old to be studying IMO when I think back what I had to do at A level (not that I finished my A levels mind ).

[Vorfin]

UK students have normally finished A levels by age 18 here I know 20 year olds still in lukio and they are studying a far wider range of subjects but not at A level more like GCSE.

This was my thought, I can see why the basics of maths and science are needed, but A-Level physics is very in depth.

IMO the Finnish High School physics can't be the same depth, as trying to teach say, an art, or language student Quantum Theory, well, just wouldn't work. The High School courses seem much more like our GCSEs, with all of the core subjects, + a few chosen ones. Whereas with A-Levels, most people only take three subjects, and a maximum allowed of 5.

So, an A-Level grade A in physics, and a High School grade, I believe E or L is the highest there, can't be equal as 1:1 The knowledge of a student with an A-Level would be much higher.

For example, I have five hours of physics a week, and 5 hours a week of each of my other four subjects. If a Finnish student has to take ten subjects, not five, their depth of understanding in each one would be halved. So, although on paper, they may equate, they wouldn't in practise.

[irnbru]

UK students have normally finished A levels by age 18 here I know 20 year olds still in lukio and they are studying a far wider range of subjects but not at A level more like GCSE.

This was my thought, I can see why the basics of maths and science are needed, but A-Level physics is very in depth.

IMO the Finnish High School physics can't be the same depth, as trying to teach say, an art, or language student Quantum Theory, well, just wouldn't work. The High School courses seem much more like our GCSEs, with all of the core subjects, + a few chosen ones. Whereas with A-Levels, most people only take three subjects, and a maximum allowed of 5.

So, an A-Level grade A in physics, and a High School grade, I believe E or L is the highest there, can't be equal as 1:1 The knowledge of a student with an A-Level would be much higher.

For example, I have five hours of physics a week, and 5 hours a week of each of my other four subjects. If a Finnish student has to take ten subjects, not five, their depth of understanding in each one would be halved. So, although on paper, they may equate, they wouldn't in practise.

Saying that I was doing GCSE's and A levels 15 odd years ago. They just give them away thesedays don't they? 9 A* GCSE's and 5 A* A levels is a baseline what?

[Pursuivant]

For example, I have five hours of physics a week, and 5 hours a week of each of my other four subjects. If a Finnish student has to take ten subjects, not five, their depth of understanding in each one would be halved. So, although on paper, they may equate, they wouldn't in practise.

Which in the end means the only thing you know is Euclidean geometry, but the Finn also knows who Euclid was, where he lived, when he lived and can orate his thesis in the original language. Nothing wrong with having a major subject, but already at that age... so what happens if you then age 20 figure out you don't like physics but wanted to be a florist... yeah, no biology... sorry... gotta split them atoms the rest of your life.

[Vorfin]

Which in the end means the only thing you know is Euclidean geometry, but the Finn also knows who Euclid was, where he lived, when he lived and can orate his thesis in the original language. Nothing wrong with having a major subject, but already at that age... so what happens if you then age 20 figure out you don't like physics but wanted to be a florist... yeah, no biology... sorry... gotta split them atoms the rest of your life.

Of course, variety is a great thing, and the Finnish way probably is better to an extent. However, when moving from country to country.

Fin : 10 High School Grades, one in Physics, one in Maths.

Brit: 5 A-Levels, one in Physics, one in Maths.

Who would you hire if the grades are deemed at equal? Of course, the Fin, however, who would make a superior engineer, or accountant, or physics teacher? Of course, that would be the Brit, being able to identify flowers is all well and good, but when the reactor goes into meltdown, it's not much help.

You would appear to an employer to have equal or greater qualifications to the Brit, but once on the job, chances are you would be lost as your knowledge is over many subjects, not the one you are working on.

[Jukka Aho]

Fin : 10 High School Grades, one in Physics, one in Maths.
Brit: 5 A-Levels, one in Physics, one in Maths.

Who would you hire if the grades are deemed at equal?

I think the question is irrelevant as you generally don’t hire anyone directly out of lukio, much less right after yläkoulu – whichever one it is you’re referring to by the term “high school”, as you haven’t really clarified that either. Did you actually take a look at the PDFs to which I provided links earlier in this thread? They should answer your questions about the breadth and depth of the education pretty comprehensively.

[Pursuivant]

Who would you hire if the grades are deemed at equal? Of course, the Fin, however, who would make a superior engineer, or accountant, or physics teacher? Of course, that would be the Brit, being able to identify flowers is all well and good, but when the reactor goes into meltdown, it's not much help.

Why would you hire someone who cannot interact with anyone nor have any common sense outside some obscure field?

You would appear to an employer to have equal or greater qualifications to the Brit, but once on the job, chances are you would be lost as your knowledge is over many subjects, not the one you are working on.

The difference is, you need to get that job first - but as you wouldn't even understand the job advert... foreign countries? Aspire for Sellafield.

[Vorfin]

Interesting as this topic is, and I do love to debate But, back to my original question.

On paper, what is the equivalence between an average high school grade, and an average A-Level?

When an employer there for a general job asks me what an A-Level is worth, what do I say? As saying I have five of them when normal Fin would have 10 would reduce my chances.

When she is here, and gets asked the same question, can she say her 10 High School grades are equal to 10 A-Levels? If she does, she will either get the job right away, or be laughed out of there as no one has 10 A-Levels.

Is there some kind of chart to compare on? For example, a Uni application for an English and Finnish student.

Eg.

English student to take a physics course needs: 5 A*-C A-Levels with one in maths and one in physics.

Finnish student to take the same course needs: 10 L grade High School grades, one in maths, on in physics.

Then that would show one A-Level = 2 High school grades and give an accurate comparison of their effective value in the other country.

[laulau]

Hmm, can try to compare by looking at what Oxford require:

A Level student needs: AAA
International qualifications from Finland: Successful completion of the Ylioppilastutkintotodistus/ Studentexamensbetyg with at least four subjects, where no individual subject score is below eximia cum laude approbatur (excellent) and at least two subjects are at laudatur (excellent).

So this means, according to Oxford, two subjects at laudatur and a further two at eximia cum laude approbatur or higher is equivalent to AAA.

[Pursuivant]

Then that would show one A-Level = 2 High school grades and give an accurate comparison of their effective value in the other country.

But it still won't make you beautiful.

[sammy]

English student to take a physics course needs: 5 A*-C A-Levels with one in maths and one in physics.

Finnish student to take the same course needs: 10 L grade High School grades, one in maths, on in physics.

Then that would show one A-Level = 2 High school grades and give an accurate comparison of their effective value in the other country.

As I mentioned earlier, it's a case (or maybe a barrel) of oranges and apples. It's pretty hard to compare the two systems in the way you've done, since the Finnish students need to complete both the upper secondary school leaving certificate and the matriculation examination. The former includes several subjects, the latter usually 4 to 6. The former has a grading scale from 4 (fail) to 10, the latter from Improbatur (fail) to Laudatur.

These two together constitute what you refer to as "high school grades" in Finland. Naturally the subjects overlap (although IIRC in principle one may try and pass an 'additional' subject in the matriculation exam without ever having taken courses in the same - not sure how many even try this) but they are two different certificates. See the Oxford example below.

A Level student needs: AAA
International qualifications from Finland: Successful completion of the Ylioppilastutkintotodistus/ Studentexamensbetyg with at least four subjects, where no individual subject score is below eximia cum laude approbatur (excellent) and at least two subjects are at laudatur (excellent).

The same 'problem' is present here, the "at least four subjects" requirement is not actually set by Oxford university but by the Finnish Matriculation exam board - that's the minimum a Finnish student has to take. In other words, you can't get the Ylioppilastutkintotodistus (matriculation certificate) with less than four subjects so it would be plain weird if Oxford required less than four I'm actually surprised to see they do not require more - they easily could do that, and actually completing only the four compulsory subjects in the matriculation exam is not maybe a sign of an "advanced" student from a Finnish point of view... anyway at least they have fairly high grade expectations (and possibly also an interview I'd presume)

Interestingly enough, Oxford university mentions nothing whatsoever about the lukio (upper secondary school) grades. Apparently they regard the matriculation exam as such the "equivalent" of A-levels.

For example, when Finnish students apply to Swedish universities, both the above-mentioned certificates are considered - the local UCAS (VHS) calculates a 'comparison number' based on the overall average of the school leaving certificate, and the average grade of the matriculation exam. Again, it's a completely different system of admission there.

Be as it may I'd still say it's perfectly possible (likely, in fact) that UK A-levels are a bit more in-depth than the equivalent Finnish matriculation exam subjects - because of the different system, students specialise earlier in the UK.

[sinikala]

Who would you hire if the grades are deemed at equal? Of course, the Fin, however, who would make a superior engineer, or accountant, or physics teacher? Of course, that would be the Brit, being able to identify flowers is all well and good, but when the reactor goes into meltdown, it's not much help.

Being a schoolie, your experience is limited to high school, so you have not yet understood that in the grand scheme of things, A-levels and other high school qualifications are just a means to an end. Once you have a degree, nobody is much interested in what A-levels you did.

The only decent professional career that you can get into directly without a degree nowadays is the Forces. Decent A-levels will get you straight into officer training. Anything more needs a degree.

Similarly once you have a doctorate, your first degree isn't all that interesting to employers, unless you cannot find a job based on what you did in your doctorate... then it's a fall-back.

To answer your question who would get the job... the Finnish high school graduate or the UK person with A-levels? and who will be dealing with nuclear meltdown?

... Neither of them. It will be the Frenchman with a degree in nuclear physics and 5 years experience at Framatome.

[Pursuivant]

More likely Mr. Fukov with engineering degree in graphite reactors and his intership done at some weird place called Tserno... Cherno... anyways, he comes cheap.

[Upphew]

A Level student needs: AAA

22.8% of A level final results were graded A
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GCE_Advanc ... mographics

International qualifications from Finland: Successful completion of the Ylioppilastutkintotodistus/ Studentexamensbetyg with at least four subjects, where no individual subject score is below eximia cum laude approbatur (excellent) and at least two subjects are at laudatur (excellent).

So this means, according to Oxford, two subjects at laudatur and a further two at eximia cum laude approbatur or higher is equivalent to AAA.

# 5% of students receive a laudatur
# 15% of students receive an eximia cum laude approbatur
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur#Scoring

According to those statistics, I'd guess that 2 Ls with 2 Es, should be a bit harder to achieve.