Lox, bagel and cream cheese

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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:40 am

jmakinen wrote: Not really. Durum is a more expensive product almost anywhere. And also this was the cover for the Licence Office when they told me it was too expensive to permit into Finland and a waste of 'resources' since we had wheat.
Let's see... the most cheap-ass dry pasta in Finland is made of.... ? Quite possibly it is due to the price, don't you agree? If not the price, then what?



Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

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jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:07 am

Let's see... the most cheap-ass dry pasta in Finland is made of.... ? Quite possibly it is due to the price, don't you agree? If not the price, then what?
Doubt if it is all about price. The best flour type for pasta is Durum - and you can get decent 500g packages of 100% durum from Lidl for approx 1€ - maybe less - not much more. There are minimal differences among 100% durum products - some might think diCecco a bit better or Barilla - but if all cooked al dente - the results of the meal will be 95% dependent on sauce and stuff with the pasta.

The present pasta eaters of Finland should just be thankful the days of Vaasa 'spaghetti' are over.

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:32 am

jmakinen wrote:Doubt if it is all about price. The best flour type for pasta is Durum - and you can get decent 500g packages of 100% durum from Lidl for approx 1€ - maybe less - not much more. There are minimal differences among 100% durum products - some might think diCecco a bit better or Barilla - but if all cooked al dente - the results of the meal will be 95% dependent on sauce and stuff with the pasta.

The present pasta eaters of Finland should just be thankful the days of Vaasa 'spaghetti' are over.
I'm sure you understand, the main driver for the lowest priced products definitely is not the taste. I don't know what the market price of durum vs. some other kind of wheat (or pasta made of those) is when bought by the ton, but I'm 100% confident that the price ultimately is the deciding factor.

jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:33 am

I'm sure you understand, the main driver for the lowest priced products definitely is not the taste. I don't know what the market price of durum vs. some other kind of wheat (or pasta made of those) is when bought by the ton, but I'm 100% confident that the price ultimately is the deciding factor.
Please realize that durum is the wheat for pasta for getting the 'preferred' consistency - and that preference seems to be universal.* Read the History of Pasta** linked above. Also look thru some of the price charts (Futures markets etc.) for the various types of wheat. Durum is among the most expensive if not the most expensive. Myllyn Paras uses soft wheat along with durum in their cheapest macaroni.

* from Ask Dr. Sears: Most pasta is made with durum wheat, a hard wheat high in protein and gluten, which makes a dough that sticks together well and holds its shape, a feature so important to pasta makers.

** Although hundreds of small pasta factories opened in America’s Little Italys, Italians preferred to buy imported pasta, however expensive, because it was made from durum wheat. (American farmers did not grow durum until the 20th century.) The article otherwise quite informative and interesting.
Last edited by jmakinen on Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:07 am

Code: Select all

lots of olive oil!!
Where do you use the lots of olive oil? In crust? Supposedly oil in dough makes doughs tender - not always wanting - like taste of olive oil very much but have been always careful in adding as want bread and crusts with some 'chew' - just wondering. (eg I called some Ciabatta baker in NJ and he was against oil in Ciabatta as lose texture)

Or do you mean lot in the sauce? Good deal for taste. The greasy kebab pizzas don't use olive oil in sauce so one just gets oil with no benefit from more taste.

FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:36 am

jmakinen wrote: Please realize that durum is the wheat for pasta for getting the 'preferred' consistency - and that preference seems to be universal.* Read the History of Pasta** linked above. Also look thru some of the price charts (Futures markets etc.) for the various types of wheat. Durum is among the most expensive if not the most expensive. Myllyn Paras uses soft wheat along with durum in their cheapest macaroni.
Something doesn't add up. Based on what you've said; it is possible to make commercial pasts out of other wheat than durum (as it was done back in who-knows-when). Durum wheat is more expensive than 'other type' of wheat (of which the pasta was made earlier). Nowadays almost all pasta, including the most cheapest ones is made of durum. So are you saying that companies are doing that out of generosity or charity? To make a better product for customers even if their most cheapest brands will cost more due to it?

I have made pasta by hand and know about the qualities of durum wheat, but your logic regarding its usage in the cheapest commercial pasta is lacking. Just a reminder, we're still talking about Finland and the cheapest of alternatives, so it's all about the price/profit. If it was possible to make pasta out of water and still legally sell it as pasta, water would be the main ingredient at least in the cheapest versions, and that is a fact.

jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:19 pm

Something doesn't add up. Based on what you've said; it is possible to make commercial pasts out of other wheat than durum (as it was done back in who-knows-when). Durum wheat is more expensive than 'other type' of wheat (of which the pasta was made earlier).
Have a look at the history of wheat growing and you will see Durum was developed maybe even 1000 yrs ago in Mediterranean and Middle East. Its gluten content was noted as being good for a pasta-type product - including couscous. The product held shapes - maintained chewing consistency, etc.

Nowadays almost all pasta, including the most cheapest ones is made of durum. So are you saying that companies are doing that out of generosity or charity? To make a better product for customers even if their most cheapest brands will cost more due to it?
It's really a question of using accepted right ingredients to make a product. I doubt Alko would sell any Koskenkorva without using C2H5OH. Finland had kept proper pasta out of Finland via a dictatorial License Office assisted by a 'dictatorial' government. But when Finns started traveling en masse in the 70's - especially to Spain and Italy - they found what pasta was supposed to be. Then with the advent of EFTA and later the EU - and the abolition of licenses - the reading of foreign cookbooks etc. - it was a natural consequence that Finnish sellers of pasta included the proper durum content. You can't make marzipan using peanuts - even if they are cheaper.
I have made pasta by hand and know about the qualities of durum wheat, but your logic regarding its usage in the cheapest commercial pasta is lacking. Just a reminder, we're still talking about Finland and the cheapest of alternatives, so it's all about the price/profit. If it was possible to make pasta out of water and still legally sell it as pasta, water would be the main ingredient at least in the cheapest versions, and that is a fact.
No argument - there is always someone trying to low ball. But there are also companies that want to build their future on making quality products and then try to do their economics revolving on a basic quality reference point. I'm not backing Lidl as any shining light overall - but have a look at their olive oil - It's about 4+ Euros a liter - and they constantly win taste tests versus products 2x or more more expensive. Their yoghurt is cheap and excellent - and there are other companies doing similar things - decide on a quality product and then get it out as good a price as keeps it profitable.

Willie
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by Willie » Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:41 am

tuulen wrote:Finland has lox (salmon) (lohi), and Finland has cream cheese (kermajuusto), but why does Finland not have good, boiled bagels?

Boiled bagels are easy to make, and lox, bagel and cream cheese is a very tasty combination, good to eat.

Mazel tov!
Just to save anybody out there any sort of confusion, cream cheese like you might schmeer on a bagel is not kermajuusto. Tuorejuusto is. Can't believe I've even read this bagel thread, I make my own. If I wanted to eat bagels every day I'd live in Manhattan.

tuulen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by tuulen » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:42 am

Willie wrote:...If I wanted to eat bagels every day I'd live in Manhattan.
Not necessarily eaten every day, but a good bagel is a tasty treat.

And, lox on a good bagel along with cream cheese is like taking a trip to Manhattan!

jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:36 am

And, lox on a good bagel along with cream cheese is like taking a trip to Manhattan!
That's no minor statement! There's a tremendous amount of memory called up with a distinctive taste of various foods and drinks. A good bagel and Philadelpjhia will do it for 7th Avenue, Retsina for a restaurant patio on Crete, a lobster for crashing waves on the Maine coast, a good beer for a Keller in München, a good Brie on a baguette for Paris, a Mojito for Havana, etc, Sure adds a great dimension. And there's no way to have a bagel every day - there'd be no way to visit all the other places! :)

AldenG
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by AldenG » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:16 pm

jmakinen wrote:
Retsina for a restaurant patio on Crete
Anybody happen to know what is the distinctively "thin" and dry class of red wine similar to Italian chianti that is popular in Greece?

I used to have that at a Greek restaurant in town and after they went out of business I couldn't remember what it was called.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

Bavarian
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by Bavarian » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:49 pm

AldenG wrote:
jmakinen wrote:
Retsina for a restaurant patio on Crete
Anybody happen to know what is the distinctively "thin" and dry class of red wine similar to Italian chianti that is popular in Greece?
Google may not be your friend, but they offer a good starting point.

Why am I not surprised that there's a site called All About Greek Wine?

AldenG
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by AldenG » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:00 pm

Bavarian wrote: Google may not be your friend, but they offer a good starting point.
Google and me . . . I think we're "still friends," but she told me she thinks we've been spending too much time together and maybe we should get to know other people.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

Tiwaz
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by Tiwaz » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:34 am

jmakinen wrote:One will find food 'altered' that way EVERYplace - but the number of Scovilles is not really a parameter of taste in general - nor preferences. Mushy carrots are mushy globally - tough meat is always tough meat, pasty bread is always pasty bread - etc etc etc.
And are mushy carrots hated universally? Or perhaps some people like it that way...
Perhaps some people like tough meat. Etc etc etc.

Oh but there is only ONE true way for food to exist. One jmaki has and that's it!
Hopefully your concept of taste and preferences is not so one dimensional as to limit itself to chili quantity.
I think it is you who should widen his taste and preferences. And accept that other people just do not like the same things. And stop acting as if all preferences but yours are somehow inferior...

jmakinen
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Re: Lox, bagel and cream cheese

Post by jmakinen » Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:25 am

perhaps some people like it that way (mushy carrots)...
Perhaps some people like tough meat. Etc etc etc.
To each his own - bon appetit!
Oh but there is only ONE true way for food to exist. One jmaki has and that's it!
I think it is you who should widen his taste and preferences. And accept that other people just do not like the same things. And stop acting as if all preferences but yours are somehow inferior...
You really are DAFFY. I hardly support ONE TASTE - ONE WAY - might be one of the reasons I have about 1500 cookbooks and traveled to 60+ countries

But hey - if tough meat and mushy carrots float your boat - keep your daffiness with all its 'pleasures'


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