National History Day Reasearch on Finland in World War II

[Jukka Aho]

Historianurkkas wont load the registration stuff correctly, so I'll have to try that one later.

Hmm, seems to work for me. I didn’t complete the registration, though. (The first panel the site displays before letting you on to the actual registration form is about accepting or not accepting the forum rules. If there’s an ad blocking your view, close it by clicking on the text SULJE above it.)

(Oh, and it’s best not to use Google Translate for registration forms and other such stuff, either. You can use it for aiding you with the translations of the various form fields and their descriptions, as well as for browsing the Finnish discussion threads, but better not to try using it for actually posting the registration data or new messages. Fill in the forms and post messages on the plain Finnish pages.)

[Rip]

Though I think modern Finns are a little too critical of Kekkonen....maybe a little more "distance in time" is required before we can get more objective view of his accomplishments....

Some are. Those with strongest opinions have tend to be more vocal than average. He did make it to number three in the "greatest Finns" vote some years ago.
(and I think it would be pretty hard not to be at least critical of the state of democracy in this country in his later years)

[tuulen]

4. What were some major debates in Finland bafore, during, and after the wars?

After the wars? How long time span is your project supposed to cover? (Yes, some wanted to have Soviet satellite like the East/East-Central countries were)

Well, the project itself spans over only the war years, however judges want you to put your project in historical context, so its good to know about everything relating the the wars that led up to it and things after the wars. Debates that were occuring in Finland from around 1900 up until the war especcially involving political and military issues would be good, and debates involving the wars themselves in post war years as well up until present.

Although historical context is important, perhaps in this case a more narrow focus could better serve your project. For instance, there have been numerous territorial disputes between Finland, Sweden and Russia during the past thousand years, literally, and so the war events of 1939-1944 could be seen as only part of that very long history.

After declaring independence in 1917, Finland had internal civil war troubles and little effort was made to prepare for any other war. WWII events between Germany and Russia were completely out of Finland's control, but Finland got dragged into that war. After the war years Finland remained independent but was under Soviet Union domination for many years, and during that time there was no opportunity for debate.

[Karhunkoski]

so its good to know about everything relating the the wars that led up to it and things after the wars.

Maybe you could include the lingering effects of the Finnish Civil War, how families who had been on either the red or white sides in 1918, were suddenly asked to pull together in 1939. Certainly amongst the older generations, painful memories ran deep.

Also read around Mannerheim - there's a good set of books about his life (not sure if they're available in English), but they tell about the problems and divisions during the winter/continuation wars. Many of his officers just ignored orders, some top-brass had to be kicked out, etc. It wasn't all white ghosts, efficiently dispatching the invader at a 20:1 ratio.

[abare]

Historianurkkas wont load the registration stuff correctly, so I'll have to try that one later.

Hmm, seems to work for me. I didn’t complete the registration, though. (The first panel the site displays before letting you on to the actual registration form is about accepting or not accepting the forum rules. If there’s an ad blocking your view, close it by clicking on the text SULJE above it.)

(Oh, and it’s best not to use Google Translate for registration forms and other such stuff, either. You can use it for aiding you with the translations of the various form fields and their descriptions, as well as for browsing the Finnish discussion threads, but better not to try using it for actually posting the registration data or new messages. Fill in the forms and post messages on the plain Finnish pages.)

Yeah, I got around that part but the registration code i have to type in loads as a question mark box.
Yeah, Google Translate isn't always the greatest, a Finnish student at our high school who aided some with translation told us all about it.

[abare]

so its good to know about everything relating the the wars that led up to it and things after the wars.

Maybe you could include the lingering effects of the Finnish Civil War, how families who had been on either the red or white sides in 1918, were suddenly asked to pull together in 1939. Certainly amongst the older generations, painful memories ran deep.

Also read around Mannerheim - there's a good set of books about his life (not sure if they're available in English), but they tell about the problems and divisions during the winter/continuation wars. Many of his officers just ignored orders, some top-brass had to be kicked out, etc. It wasn't all white ghosts, efficiently dispatching the invader at a 20:1 ratio.

I havn't looked into much about left over effects from the Civil War, but that does sound like it would be a good thing to look into.

As for the books on Mannerheim, I have seen quotes from them here and there, but I pretty much depleted all books on Finland in World War II out of the midwest regional library catalog, and none were written by Mannerheim. Thank you soo much for the suggestions, though!

[Rob A.]

After declaring independence in 1917, Finland had internal civil war troubles and little effort was made to prepare for any other war. WWII events between Germany and Russia were completely out of Finland's control, but Finland got dragged into that war. After the war years Finland remained independent but was under Soviet Union domination for many years, and during that time there was no opportunity for debate.

Well...an argument can be made that the war was completely out of the control of Germany and Russia as well. "Popular opinion" among the "victorious" nations, of course, has it that Germany "started" the war. But nothing in human affairs is as simple as that....the seeds of WW II were sown much earlier by a whole series of factors, the most obvious of which go back at least to the Franco-Prussian War.

As to WW II, Finland was "dragged into that war" while Germany and the Soviet Union were still pretending to be at peace with each other. The Soviet Union attacked Finland BEFORE Germany attacked the Soviet Union.... though the "official" Soviet view was that Finland created the "casus belli". The Soviet view of the facts, though, was rejected by the League of Nations. An argument can also be made that the Red Army's disastrous performance in the Talvisota actually emboldened Hitler and lead to the start of Operation Barbarossa. This was, perhaps, too early when viewed with hindsight.

[The Red Army officer corps had been "decimated" by Stalin's purges in 1937/38. As well, the remaining officers, besides being for the most part not particularly competent, had the additional burden of having to deal with the "Politruks".]

[tuulen]

Not only did Stalin "purge" Red Army officers in the later 1930s, thereby critically weakening the army, but because Stalin did not trust his own troops to fight in Finland he sent virtual foreigners, Soviet troops from far southern Russia, and those troops were poorly trained for combat in the far north.

Germany and Russia were on relatively good terms with each other during the 1930s, when there was a fair amount of trade and other industry between them. They even went so far as to agree on a division of Poland, some for Germany and some for Russia, except that they did not ask the Poles for their opinion. But to say that Finland started the Winter War with Russia is pure nonsense. Finland had a lot of its own civil war troubles, and not much was done to prepare for being attacked, let alone to go on the offensive. Indeed, Finland had barely enough weapons to survive the Winter War, or as the saying goes that Finland won the Winter War while running out of bullets. Finland was then left on its own, and of the many international appeals for help Finland made only Nazi Germany was willing to help, but Germany wanted help from Finland in exchange, and so the stage was set for the Continuation War. In that war, perhaps the best thing Finland did was to not assist Germany in the siege of Leningrad.

[Upphew]

But to say that Finland started the Winter War with Russia is pure nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

[tuulen]

But to say that Finland started the Winter War with Russia is pure nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

Yes, that was the "official" reason as to why the Soviet Union invaded Finland, to begin the Winter War.

At that time Finland had civil war troubles between the Reds and the Whites within Finland, troubles which had been going on for many years, and because the Reds supported communism a rumor was circulated that Finnish Reds living in the Karelian Isthmus had somehow helped to start the Winter War. But that was only a rumor, and obviously not true. What is true is that during the 1930s Finland had constructed several military bunkers made of bulletproof concrete and stone, known as the Mannerheim Line, but bunkers do not move and obviously are not made for offensive purposes, and other than to construct the defensive Mannerheim Line fortification Finland had spent very little money on its military, a fact which became apparent during the Winter War and was the main reason as to why Finland made many international appeals for help after the Winter War was over.

[Rob A.]

But to say that Finland started the Winter War with Russia is pure nonsense. Finland had a lot of its own civil war troubles, and not much was done to prepare for being attacked, let alone to go on the offensive. .....

....and just to make it abundantly clear... I didn't say Finland attacked the Soviet Union....this was the Soviet Union's view. The signficant thing about this, though, is that the League of Nations rejected the Soviet interpretation of events...which, as "toothless" as this might have been is probably the best you can expect in international affairs.

Almost certainly what happened was that the Soviet Union was looking for a reason to invade, and to create this reason they had one of their military units shell another Soviet unit, then blame this on the Finns. This is a very ancient tactic...and has been used counless times through history. This tactic is also used in less provocative ways even today....it is a way of galvanizing support among the country's citizens. At the very least, it creates confusion and allows events to proceed beyond the point were the original "reason" for the war has any remaining significance...when the "truth" eventually comes out it doesn't matter anymore..

Another adage about diplomacy... "Diplomacy is the art of concealing the truth until such time as it becomes irrelevant to the events in play."....

[tuulen]

....and just to make it abundantly clear...

...At the very least, it creates confusion and allows events to proceed beyond the point were the original "reason" for the war has any remaining significance...when the "truth" eventually comes out it doesn't matter anymore..

Another adage about diplomacy... "Diplomacy is the art of concealing the truth until such time as it becomes irrelevant to the events in play."....

Let ME make it abundantly clear that YOU did not say that Finland attacked the Soviet Union, please, but others have made that accusation, in particular the Soviet Union at that time, although many years later Russia did admit the truth.

Soviet Union? Everybody knew it was Russia, after all.

Another aspect is that the Soviet Union was receiving many shipments of military supplies at Murmansk, as supplied by the United States, and so the Soviet invasion of Finland could be seen as a defensive strategic mission, to protect the transportation of military supplies by otherwise vulnerable trains from Murmansk to Moscow or wherever, and that could also be a reason as to why a large piece of Salla, Finland was ceded to the Soviet Union after the wars were over because of the relative proximity of Salla to the train lines.

[Rip]

Another aspect is that the Soviet Union was receiving many shipments of military supplies at Murmansk, as supplied by the United States

Not in 1939-1940 (or earlier)

[Rob A.]

Soviet Union? Everybody knew it was Russia, after all.

Actually...everyone knew it was Stalin....

Though called a "Socialist" or "Communist" state,[Aside: There actually hasn't been a "true" communist state, with the POSSIBLE exception of Cuba...for the most part they devolved into dictatorships] ...it was actually closer to an autocracy..... Finland was not alone in viewing the Soviet Union...and in particular the Stalinist Soviet Union, as a bigger threat than Nazi Germany....almost all East European governments...or, at least partisan groups, supported the Nazis as the lesser form of "evil"...Poland, of course, was not given the chance to choose and the Czech part of Czechoslovakia was far enough away that the Nazis were their problem, not the Soviet Union....at least in 1940.... The countries already knew the "truth" about the Soviet Union...Nazi Germany was not such a "well-known quantity"...

And Finland was the only country that didn't succumb....though the "threat" persisted pretty well until the "glasnost"/"perestroika" period......

[tuulen]

Another aspect is that the Soviet Union was receiving many shipments of military supplies at Murmansk, as supplied by the United States

Not in 1939-1940 (or earlier)

Aha! I was not aware of just when the US began supplying the Soviet Union at Murmansk during WWII, but Murmansk is one of the few ocean ports in western Russia which remains ice-free during winter. However, apparently the Soviet Union invaded Finland for some other reason.