Splitting up child involved

[Cory]

....It's all about the children.

Yeah...and the kids know it!!!...

I know (?) this was slide in with some humor making sure the child grows up healthy and well-adjusted in a divorced family takes a lot of work by the parents ie. putting aside differences of opinion for the well being of the kids.

[zujicgse]

Don't make the same mistake that many people make, and which is getting back together with someone because of the BABY and not because the two have solved their difference and believe that they LOVE one another as Before and they want to be together again. For the money issue i recommend choosing to pay the minimum as lower as it can be then you can pay more ONLY if you feel to do so not because you signed the agreement to pay such amount, Good luck.

[dutchguy]

Hi all, I haven't checked this forum in a while. Thanks again for the advice so far. As for the person saying the story is one sided, of course it is, there is my story, her story and then there's the truth. That's how things always go in life.
I can however state the facts and the way I see things.

Since I last posted things have been bouncing around, first she is all happy and let's me see my daughter on skype and says she wants to put her on an english kindergarden etc, which I think would be great, but then 3 days later she says how much she hates me and that she doesn't think she should put the effort to show lilian (our daughter) to me on skype. She has moved on her own to an apartment in Helsinki together with Lilian, as she didn't want to live with her parrents anymore, her budget is really tight as a result of this, which is very difficult for her. I told her that I understand it that she hates me, but that showing lilian to me on skype is not doing something nice for me, but is actually doing the best for lilian. Every psychology book / site you read says the same that it's important for a child to have a good relationship with both her parrents even if we can't get along. Ever since I came back from Finland, I have kept communication to a minimum and only spoke about things regarding lilian. She has said repeatedly that she hopes I die, get homeless, that lilian will hate me etc. Every time I have felt the urge to argue back and defend myself, but that would just keep the cycle going on.

Not a day goes by that I don't think of myself that I'm a bad father and that I should be doing more, but when I think about it honestly there isn't much I can do. The relationship we had was toxic, alot of drama and fighting, and I don't want my child growing up with an image of her parrents being like that. But leaving her, does not mean that I'm abandoning my daughter. Of course I can't visit every week due to the distance, but with current technology such as skype maintaining contact has become relatively easy, but she says that Lilian just thinks I'm a teletubby on the screen and that she can skype with me when she's old enough to choose that herself. I told her that creating bondage is an ongoing process and it wouldn't be right to suddenly start skyping when the child is older with little contact before (except the visits). I really want to see my daughter on skype, but I don't know what to do if she won't let me. My therapist said that if she doesn't show her on skype I should not pay child support, this doesn't seem right however cuz it would be damaging to my child. And I'm afraid that simply threatening with the idea would only lead to further conflict and drama. Another way would be to go to court, but I'm not sure if the court can decide on something like weekly or twice weekly skype contacts? Needless to say this situation is really draining me and I'm in doubt what is the best option right now. I currently got a visit to Finland planned for next month for lilians first birthday, so I untill then I won't do anything in order to not make the situation any worse.

She also said that she's angry that I left her to take care of the child alone and that I should have stayed with her to help her the first years. I think however that it would be extremely devastating to a child to witness a divorce when they are at the age they understand, and that it's better not to stay together for lilian's sake. Of course I understand that it's extremely hard raising a child alone, and I have told her also that if she doesn't want it, I would take lilian here with me and raise her, even if that would mean quitting my job etc. I truely hate this situation, but I have to stay in it for the sake of lilian. I still love my ex, even though I know that it won't ever work out, and all this hate and drama is draining me.

As to an earlier poster saying that I still live with my parrents, yes I am indeed as I don't have the money to move on my own, as you know the economy isn't at it's best right now, and after paying child support, and bills it's just not possible right now. And I have offered to move in together with her in Finland when we were still together, but she said her self that I should stay in the Netherlands, even though before she said I should move there, when I started planning on it she said I shouldn't etc. These kinds of yes / no things have been happening all the time throughout our relationship, and it's not just pregnancy hormones because it's the same now and it also was before the pregnancy, that's the reason why my therapist also said that it sounds like the has Borderline Personality Disorder, but of course we can't know that for sure without her going to a psychiatrist for screening.

Anyway I'm not here to look for sympathy, although it's always nice to recieve it of course. I would like to know what your opinions are as to what to do in this situation where she doesn't want to show me my daughter on skype. Right now I'm just avoiding contact, yeasterday she send me again a message on facebook saying that she hates me more and more and that lilian would also get to see later in life what a bad person I am, and that she hopes I become homeless. I choose not to respond to this message at all, and I also think that right now the time is not right to push her into showing me lilian on skype, she has been sleeping bad because lilian has been having an ear infection so nights are hard on her, so I understand her anger. I'm just afraid that if I push her to show me lilian on skype, or better to let lilian see her father on skype (which is always the way I brought it to her, as lilian has a right to see me, not the other way around) that she won't let me see lilian when I visit there for her birthday next month. Anyway many thanks in advance, I feel bad every day about this situation beating myself up, I can't enjoy stuff because I feel I don't deserve to enjoy things, but then at the same time I realise that I have to just go on living, because feeling sad and hopeless doesn't help anyone in this situation. I am writing a book for lilian every week I write some pages as to what's going on in my and my families life, and what I think about her and discribe what she did when I saw her on skype or some photo's / video's on facebook, which I think would be a great gift for her later when she's old.

[AldenG]

This woman does sound seriously wack, whether it's BPD or anything else.

I don't know what you DO with that insight, but your recognizing it is better for everyone than acting in blind, one-sided good faith.

Obviously one needs to be concerned about the welfare of your daughter, but again I don't know how you act on that in these circumstances.

[rinso]

It is clear to me that the mother of your child is mentally ill. And over time, this will only get worse.
When she is admitted to a mental institution (and that will happen) she cannot take care of your daughter. You cannot step in because you probably are not allowed to take her to Holland. So the grandparents are the most likely option. It will give you more access to your daughter, but you will remain this weird speaking foreign guy that she can not understand. And when her mother is released from hospital, the situation changes again.
I'm wondering if this situation is good for your daughter. You really need professional advice in this.

I have the impression you have ignored advice to guaranty your rights because you didn't want lawyers involved. Now you're paying without any leverage to see or talk to your daughter. It might already be to late to repair the damage.

[Työelämä]

Hi all, I haven't checked this forum in a while. Thanks again for the advice so far. As for the person saying the story is one sided, of course it is, there is my story, her story and then there's the truth. That's how things always go in life.
I can however state the facts and the way I see things.

Since I last posted things have been bouncing around, first she is all happy and let's me see my daughter on skype and says she wants to put her on an english kindergarden etc, which I think would be great, but then 3 days later she says how much she hates me and that she doesn't think she should put the effort to show lilian (our daughter) to me on skype. She has moved on her own to an apartment in Helsinki together with Lilian, as she didn't want to live with her parrents anymore, her budget is really tight as a result of this, which is very difficult for her. I told her that I understand it that she hates me, but that showing lilian to me on skype is not doing something nice for me, but is actually doing the best for lilian. Every psychology book / site you read says the same that it's important for a child to have a good relationship with both her parrents even if we can't get along. Ever since I came back from Finland, I have kept communication to a minimum and only spoke about things regarding lilian. She has said repeatedly that she hopes I die, get homeless, that lilian will hate me etc. Every time I have felt the urge to argue back and defend myself, but that would just keep the cycle going on.

Not a day goes by that I don't think of myself that I'm a bad father and that I should be doing more, but when I think about it honestly there isn't much I can do. The relationship we had was toxic, alot of drama and fighting, and I don't want my child growing up with an image of her parrents being like that. But leaving her, does not mean that I'm abandoning my daughter. Of course I can't visit every week due to the distance, but with current technology such as skype maintaining contact has become relatively easy, but she says that Lilian just thinks I'm a teletubby on the screen and that she can skype with me when she's old enough to choose that herself. I told her that creating bondage is an ongoing process and it wouldn't be right to suddenly start skyping when the child is older with little contact before (except the visits). I really want to see my daughter on skype, but I don't know what to do if she won't let me. My therapist said that if she doesn't show her on skype I should not pay child support, this doesn't seem right however cuz it would be damaging to my child. And I'm afraid that simply threatening with the idea would only lead to further conflict and drama. Another way would be to go to court, but I'm not sure if the court can decide on something like weekly or twice weekly skype contacts? Needless to say this situation is really draining me and I'm in doubt what is the best option right now. I currently got a visit to Finland planned for next month for lilians first birthday, so I untill then I won't do anything in order to not make the situation any worse.

She also said that she's angry that I left her to take care of the child alone and that I should have stayed with her to help her the first years. I think however that it would be extremely devastating to a child to witness a divorce when they are at the age they understand, and that it's better not to stay together for lilian's sake. Of course I understand that it's extremely hard raising a child alone, and I have told her also that if she doesn't want it, I would take lilian here with me and raise her, even if that would mean quitting my job etc. I truely hate this situation, but I have to stay in it for the sake of lilian. I still love my ex, even though I know that it won't ever work out, and all this hate and drama is draining me.

As to an earlier poster saying that I still live with my parrents, yes I am indeed as I don't have the money to move on my own, as you know the economy isn't at it's best right now, and after paying child support, and bills it's just not possible right now. And I have offered to move in together with her in Finland when we were still together, but she said her self that I should stay in the Netherlands, even though before she said I should move there, when I started planning on it she said I shouldn't etc. These kinds of yes / no things have been happening all the time throughout our relationship, and it's not just pregnancy hormones because it's the same now and it also was before the pregnancy, that's the reason why my therapist also said that it sounds like the has Borderline Personality Disorder, but of course we can't know that for sure without her going to a psychiatrist for screening.

Anyway I'm not here to look for sympathy, although it's always nice to recieve it of course. I would like to know what your opinions are as to what to do in this situation where she doesn't want to show me my daughter on skype. Right now I'm just avoiding contact, yeasterday she send me again a message on facebook saying that she hates me more and more and that lilian would also get to see later in life what a bad person I am, and that she hopes I become homeless. I choose not to respond to this message at all, and I also think that right now the time is not right to push her into showing me lilian on skype, she has been sleeping bad because lilian has been having an ear infection so nights are hard on her, so I understand her anger. I'm just afraid that if I push her to show me lilian on skype, or better to let lilian see her father on skype (which is always the way I brought it to her, as lilian has a right to see me, not the other way around) that she won't let me see lilian when I visit there for her birthday next month. Anyway many thanks in advance, I feel bad every day about this situation beating myself up, I can't enjoy stuff because I feel I don't deserve to enjoy things, but then at the same time I realise that I have to just go on living, because feeling sad and hopeless doesn't help anyone in this situation. I am writing a book for lilian every week I write some pages as to what's going on in my and my families life, and what I think about her and discribe what she did when I saw her on skype or some photo's / video's on facebook, which I think would be a great gift for her later when she's old.

Hi, we are in same situation my wife tends to portray similar characters like your ex for instance unusual levels of instability in mood; black and white thinking, or splitting as well as chaotic and unstable interpersonal relationships, self-image, identity, and behavior; as well as a disturbance in her individual's sense of self. She was even smoking when we had our pregnancy of 7 to 8 months old which doctors and even family members have told her it is dangerous to our child. But you know with all this when i look into her i see a strong woman, intelligent and educated , a person that may have undergone her own childhood experiences. I did have this promise to my self that i will not raise my children in a split marriage or polygamous family and i still stick back with my wife and show her how i still love her and the baby and i want us to remain as family even with the disagreement and agreement going on within us. Recently we even had a fight on what name we should give to our child and she insisted it hers or non but this has also been resolved after i talked her out of it and gave her reasons why the child should have both names. Things were even worst before, but since ever i got a job and our finances are improving, she is seeing more sense stability, and what made me cry out and say to her that i understand personality issues and will not give up and will make her improve a lot from it was when she told that i was even stronger than her father who left her mother when she was younger that has led to her developing the personality disorder. I have involved my wife into swimming classes, Fitness exercises, bars and clubbing, social gathering and i can tell you things are better off today than it was months or years ago. My promise to my child is one mother and father, i will remain strong even through the yelling and shouting from wife if it is too much i will take a walk outside and breath the fresh air outside to avoid the fighting.

[Oombongo]

Your ex has really some serious problems, and she is going to poison your daughter with her ramblings.
I wish you best of luck in this situation, and hope that your daughter will turn out to be a good person despite this situation.

[dutchguy]

Hi all, thanks for the advice, as to saying it's too late for the legal part, I think it's not. She has showed me lilian on skype regularly (with some periods of not showing her), and it's only now that she completely denies the skype. I think the skype logs and visits will show a judge that I am involved. As to the person living with a BPD wife, I have great respect for you, people can't understand how hard it is unless they experience it. I know I became depressed in this situation of pushing and pulling, and the long distance and sudden life changes only aggrevated this. 2 weeks non-stop together and then 2 weeks all alone isn't a great situation to be in. I just know that it's been draining me mentally, I have even gotten to a point where I couldn't work anymore, I am now much better then before, and I am starting to speak my mind to my ex, before I just complied with everything she said, because if I would disagree there would be this huge fight/rage.

I have to say however that she's extremely caring for lilian, during the pregnancy she stopped her anti-depressants, quit smoking, started eating more and she has annorexia so this was a big thing for her. And there were moments of intense happiness with her, but also intense fighting and drama. I never got this feeling of security where I could just be completely open with her, because that would lead to more fights. I hope that she won't be the same with lilian, when lilian starts to speak more. Her parrents have also said last time I was in Finland that she needed psychiatric treatment, but she says she doesn't need it anymore and doesn't have money, I think Finland has good public health care though?

Right now I'm just talking with her parrents more, asking them about lilian etc, because speaking with my ex will always lead to fights. I am actually afraid of going to Finland due to the fights/drama I'm expecting, but I hope everything will be fine, and that we can just enjoy our time with lilian and not talk about all the things that are wrong. As for the language barrier, it is extremely tough, I tried studying Finnish but I find it very difficult, and I think by the time I would speak finnish my daughter would already speak English (if she goes to an English kindergarden). I just hope my daughter will grow up healthy and happy, and for that reason alone I want to keep regular contact and make sure I encourge her as she grows up, let her know I love her, let her know she's doing a great job and I'm proud of her when she had her first day at school.

And again thank you very much for your replies, this situation is very hard to be in, but we got to play the cards we're dealt in life. And I know this situation is even harder on my ex as she is a single mom, so I do understand her bitterness and hate. But I just hope she will be able to let that go, and keep contact strictly about our daughter, as I believe we both want lilian to be happy and healthy.

[dutchguy]

On a lighter note, does anyone have some great ideas for a truely unique and memorable gift for my daughters first birthday? I was thinking about making a personalized photo book, full of pictures of her of every month of her life. And some toy, but not sure what exactly to get her, so any great ideas would be more than appreciated.

[Cory]

does anyone have some great ideas for a truely unique and memorable gift for my daughters first birthday?

In the situation that your daughter is in I would say that just having you with her on her birthday with someone taking loads of photos of the 2 of you together would be the best gift for her. If you're not seeing her often, she'll have some kind of photo memory of you in the future to remind her that you did try to remain a constant in her life. Good luck!

[rinso]

as to saying it's too late for the legal part, I think it's not.

At the beginning of the conflict, you were equal partners with equal rights. Now there is a status quo which you have to fight. You have accepted an underdog situation. And unless you can prove she is not a good mother, a judge will not reverse the whole situation. The best you can hope for is a Skype contact decision, but without any tools to use if the mother sabotages the deal.

truely unique and memorable gift for my daughters first birthday? I was thinking about making a personalized photo book, full of pictures of her of every month of her life.

Sounds good, but how can you be sure she'll ever see it? Or that it is not hidden in a dark closet the day after her birthday?
I would get the grandparents involved in this.

[Upphew]

Sounds good, but how can you be sure she'll ever see it? Or that it is not hidden in a dark closet the day after her birthday?
I would get the grandparents involved in this.

I had same thoughts... So dutchguy, if you make one, make two so you'll have one for yourself, and while you're at it, do those for every birthday... you'll have something to give when the mommy isn't there to "archive" it. </worst case scenario>

[hmm]

if your ex has had big mental health issues, they may come up later too--- need to make sure that your daughter keeps being well taken care of. The public health care system typically works, but only if you ask, fight and demand for help, which many mentally unstable people will not do.

In the worst case scenario, you will need to make a child protection notice to the local child protection agents. http://www.lskl.fi/en/

[dutchguy]

Thanks for the advice all, maybe it's indeed better to keep the photo album here for myself to look at, and make one every year. then when she's older I could give em all at once as a present, because truely the most important thing I can give to my daughter is letting her know I think of her, and that she is loved.

As for the mom, she is taking very good care of lilian, I'm just afraid it will change when lilian starts to speak and have her own opinions about things, my ex has very much been raised with the conflict model, she told me there were constant fights at home when she was a child. My ex can't handle it very well when someone disagrees with her opinion and does something she doesn't like, I think she sees it as betrayal, whereas most people (sane peole?) see it as being your own individual and enjoying different things. she never seemed to agree to disagree.

As for the pictures, I'll deffinately make loads! Today my ex send me 2 pictures on my e-mail out of the blue, I was quite suprised by this, Lilian is playing outside with a shovel digging up sand, she's only 11 months and already walks around with toys and plays with others, she's very fast at learning things, it makes me so proud to see her grow up, even though I can't be physically there with her.

[AldenG]

Do you know the original psychiatric diagnosis (the one made by someone who actually interviewed and treated her)? Borderline? Bipolar? Something else? It really affects how to relate to her most effectively.