Schooling for kids with ML other than English or Finnish

by **Beta** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:55 am

Dear all,

I have read the discussions in this forum regarding schooling for a non-Finnish child. There are really helpful advices from people like Penelope, Cory, Sinikala and many others. I would be very happy to have your advice on my case.

We are not speaking English nor Finnish in our family (so, simple English please). Our son has been in English daycare since we moved here 2 years ago. So he speaks some English, but no Finnish. Now we need to decide what kind of school he should go, if our best wish would be Lukio after 9 years. Though it sounds too early to get worried, I am a bit scared by the low rate into Lukio and university in Finland.

So one option is to put him into local Finnish school. I understood from this forum that this is the most recommended one, as he will have more options in case he can not get into Lukio, which is very true. But would that be more likely to happen if he is competing with Finnish kids in their mother language?

Another option is an English school. But I heard they are requiring near native level English, I am not sure if he will be accepted. Even if accepted, would that mean better chance to Lukio in future? Maybe yes for an English IB program only?

Then there are bilingual schools, which start with English instruction in grade 1 and end with Finnish instruction in grade 9. I guess it will not make big difference than a Finnish school, as most of the instructions in higher grades will be Finnish.

So I am wondering which path is the best for kids like ours. Would be very happy to have your advice.

Thanks

**Sponsor:**

by **rinso** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:24 am

It depends how you see your (and his) future.
If you intend to stay in Finland, a Finnish school is the best option.
If you think you'll move on, pick an English school.

by **Beta** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:01 pm

Thank you rinso for the advice. But the question is which one gives a better chance to Lukio, not to our mobility. Actually how long we will stay in Finland is also depending on what education he can get here.

by **onkko** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:37 pm

Well you already @#$% up with "Our son has been in English daycare since we moved here 2 years ago."
He is young and has way more "flexible brain" than you do, he will be native level when its time for lukio IF you put him on finnish school AND you support him and allow/force him to interact with finns. Be it hobby or sports but find finns.
He will be native level if you dont @#$% it up. Rest is up to how talented he is, there is way to go in (finnish)lukio for almost all but you cant know if your kid is capable or even interested to go in one.

Heres example of man who moved in finlad when he was about 8 or 9, only way i can tell he isnt native finn is name and that he openly told it. He doesnt look like "normal finn" but who does.

by **Beta** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:23 am

Thanks, onkko. Very encouraging example.
Do you think English will less possibly get close to others by going to an English school? Honestly, I still think good English is more useful in his life than Finnish. That was why we put him in English daycare.

onkko wrote:there is way to go in (finnish)lukio for almost all

Really? I heard only half of them get into lukio. Is getting into English lukio more difficult? Or is it only about IB? Maybe they are the same thing?

by **Rosamunda** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:53 am

The majority of English-speaking lukios are IB schools and it is extremely difficult to get into them (even with fluent English since they run entrance tests and test maths and science as well as languages). There are no published results on minimum GPAs for IB high school entry but at a guess I would say it is somewhere between 8.5 and 9.0 but places like SYK are probably higher than 9.0

I see little point in going to an English-speaking lukio which is not an IB school since the Finnish matriculation exam is in... Finnish. And, just because a student is in a Finnish lukio doesn't mean he/she isn't learning English. Most Finnish school children learn English several hours a week from grade three right through to grade 12. Of course English is more important globally than Finnish, but the vast majority of children who graduate from lukio speak English fairly fluently.

Approx 50% of 10th graders choose to go to lukio. They CHOOSE lukio. There are enough places in lukio for all the schoolchildren who get a GPA (grade point average of the academic subjects) of 6 or above (ie most of them). However, not all 10th grade students want to go to lukio. There are many other options nowadays. Vocational schools are the preferred choice of many school leavers. On the other hand, there are relatively few vocational programmes in English. So, for foreigners with no Finnish and a less than brilliant GPA the options after 10th grade are very very limited.

by **onkko** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:05 am

Beta wrote: Honestly, I still think good English is more useful in his life than Finnish. That was why we put him in English daycare.

Now i have to ask if you are an idiot or suffer other mental disabilities?
If you plan to live here atleast 9 years from this day and this probably means youll stay forever what in your mind makes you think that english is more important than finnish in FINLAND.
Do you plan to send him in USA or England or what?

His life will be in finland and language we speak here is finnish, he will be out of everything if he cant speak it and that includes majority of jobs.

by **Beta** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:13 am

onkko wrote:Now i have to ask if you are an idiot or suffer other mental disabilities?

onkko, you are very brave to show yourself publicly by speaking like this. Feeling sad for you.
Before you leave this discussion, could you tell where and what education you took? So at least people know from you what kind of schooling to avoid.
BTW, I found this discussion from kids. Helpful to me. But you can also read it - to learn how to speak from kids.
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/node/1045003

by **rinso** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:42 am

Onkko might not express himself in the most respectful way, but he has a good point.
If you intend to stay that long in Finland, you obvious have no other plans for the future. Than fluency in Finnish is the most important asset for your kid, even more important than Lukio or an university education. If you put English and Lukio so heavy on top of your priority list, I would say that you're not completely in touch with reality.

by **Rip** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:47 am

Beta wrote:
onkko wrote:onkko, you are very brave to show yourself publicly by speaking like this. Feeling sad for you.

Well, he isn't known for excessive politeness, but I have to say I am also wondering how can you possibly think that English is more useful than Finnish if you're living in Finland?

Apart from lukio itself, the teaching with the great majority of university (the real ones, not UAS) courses at the entrance level here is in Finnish too (even if books maybe in English).

by **Beta** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:52 am

Dear all,

I did not know by saying English is more useful it sounds so weird, even 'idiot' to onkko

. I was using that as a precondition to limit the scope of discussion, not going into mobility, jobs, family background etc. But it turned out being more confusing than simplifying the discussion. sorry for that.

So this is how I came up with such thoughts about language.
- I have not been able to imagine to stay in Finland forever due to job security (at least for foreigners), the pension I paid etc.
- For kids brought up in an international environment, I guess they are more possibly going to try other parts of the world than their parents.
- Looking at the opportunity within global organizations, even in Finland, I am convinced that English is one of the keys. Educated in English is even more helpful, not just speaking English. Though education in English is not necessarily better than Finnish education.
- Living in Finland, kids will pick up Finnish anyway. It is their English that needs more help, without ignoring the importance of Finnish.

I guess these sound more weird? I will be very happy if you help me to correct them, with any kind of comments.

by **Rip** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:46 pm

Beta wrote:- I have not been able to imagine to stay in Finland forever due to job security (at least for foreigners), the pension I paid etc.

As you're considering lukio options for a kid still in day care, it seems close enough "forever" for me (I don't know your age, but I venture to guess that chances are that fifty years from now you're likely dead anyway, possibly lot sooner). Sure, it would help you find a new employer (if you need someday) if you'd learn Finnish yourself over the years. I wonder where you'd expect to get better pension benefits, if you'd live here over ten years of your prime working life anyway.

Educated in English is even more helpful, not just speaking English.

There are possibilities for that at later years for "Finnish" children too (requiring typically clearly above average talent). I would not make plan where that would be the only choice here though.

Living in Finland, kids will pick up Finnish anyway.

Your question seemed to indicate you're not too sure about this. That should be the case, but if the kids go to non-Finnish school and it is not the language they speak with their parents, it can't be taken for granted.

by **Työelämä** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:01 pm

Beta wrote:Dear all,

I did not know by saying English is more useful it sounds so weird, even 'idiot' to onkko . I was using that as a precondition to limit the scope of discussion, not going into mobility, jobs, family background etc. But it turned out being more confusing than simplifying the discussion. sorry for that.

So this is how I came up with such thoughts about language.
- I have not been able to imagine to stay in Finland forever due to job security (at least for foreigners), the pension I paid etc.
- For kids brought up in an international environment, I guess they are more possibly going to try other parts of the world than their parents.
- Looking at the opportunity within global organizations, even in Finland, I am convinced that English is one of the keys. Educated in English is even more helpful, not just speaking English. Though education in English is not necessarily better than Finnish education.
- Living in Finland, kids will pick up Finnish anyway. It is their English that needs more help, without ignoring the importance of Finnish.

I guess these sound more weird? I will be very happy if you help me to correct them, with any kind of comments.

You are correct in your thoughts! You and your family are foreigners and will still be looked as foreigners in future to come as long as they leave in Finland, give them full time English education and parttime Finnsh language classes. Rememeber you left your country in search of better life, so also your kids will grow up and may get fed up with a place they reside on and will be planning a move outside of Finland , they will be only be couragious to do such moves when they are able to speak a language like English fluently and have studied in English language. English is widely spoken and easy to further your career elsewhere than Finnish. So think diversely for your children and know that the future is not just here in Finland and they have variety of options in life but they can only scale through this only if they speak English . I do not speak Finnish but i am working here in Finland because i speak English. Your kids passport to the world is English language, even the Finnish families this days grow up their kids to speak English.

by **Rip** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Työelämä wrote: You and your family are foreigners and will still be looked as foreigners in future to come as long as they leave in Finland

Well, with that attitude...

by **interleukin** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:02 pm

I do not speak Finnish but i am working here in Finland because i speak English. Your kids passport to the world is English language, even the Finnish families this days grow up their kids to speak English.

If that attitude isn't the dictionary definition of "existing in Finland" and not "living in Finland", then I don't know what is.