The Young Turks on the Finnish School System

[Jukka Aho]

 
The Young Turks on the Finnish school system:

• The Young Turks: Finland’s Revolutionary Education System

[AldenG]

How well do you think Cenk Uygur understood and correctly reported what he was talking about, Jukka?

And how well do you think primary education in Finland matches or lives up to the characterizations and global lionization it has recently enjoyed?

I've gotten the impression here in FF that not everyone with kids in the system agrees with the glowing international reports.

The Young Turks and other shows on the channel that that carries it (MSNBC) are the most watched new sources among political progressives in the US -- increasingly so the younger the demographic examined. Somewhat marginal in terms of overall audience but extremely influential among what passes for left-wing in the US. (That's not very left-wing by Nordic or Euro standards, in fact it's pretty centrist by Euro standards.) There's a lot of audience overlap with The Daily Show and The Colbert Report on Comedy Central, but I don't count those as "competition" for share of news audience because while they can be meaty at times, they're so much more entertainment oriented.

[Jukka Aho]

How well do you think Cenk Uygur understood and correctly reported what he was talking about, Jukka?

I think at one point in the video he said something misleading about the tests, as if the kids below the age of 16 weren’t being tested at all. There are regular tests in schools, of course, but kids don’t take standardized, national tests before the 9th grade (age 16). Even the kids in the 9th grade are given standardized tests only on some subjects and it’s not a big deal for the kids themselves (the scores don’t matter any more than any regular test you take) — more like a random diagnostic probe into the system. Not all schools even participate in all the tests, or vary their participation from one year to the next. (My information might be a bit dated on this one, though.)

The only standardized test that bears any significance in the Finnish system is the matriculation examination, taken by those who graduate from lukio, typically at the age of 18 or 19. That one is a relatively “big deal”, mainly because you get this funny captain’s hat, your parents then arrange a traditional graduation party for you (all the relatives will come), and because better grades in the matriculation examination earn you entrance points when applying for further studies in a university. But not everyone takes the lukio route; they might go to a vocational school instead.

Another thing mentioned in the video is the lack of private schools. There actually is at least one private school in Finland (Anna Tapion koulu, which is also a boarding school, no less.) There are also a handful of schools which apply a special pedagogical methodology (Montessori, Steiner, etc.), there are IB schools, and there are some lukios which have a bit elitist whiff to them — such as Helsingin normaalilyseo (Norssi), a “classical” school which even has retained Latin in their curriculum. But all this is, of course, rather insignificant in the end of the day, and certainly nothing compared to the steep difference that apparently exists between public and private schooling or between individual schools in some other countries.

I've gotten the impression here in FF that not everyone with kids in the system agrees with the glowing international reports.

These international reports and news stories give so much praise it’s semi-embarrassing. They’re birds-eye view studies of the big picture, but nothing is ever quite that rosy in mundane everyday schoolwork. Or at least it feels there would yet be much room for improvement. For example, teachers (while required to acquire a university-level pedagogical degree themselves) are not paid too well, and are often overworked. Despite of all the fuss about school bullying, many schools still seem to be slow at recognizing it and inefficient at dealing with it. All too many kids are assigned to a single class in order to reduce expenses. Some schools struggle with problems related to the facilities (mold problem in the school building, too small a building for the present generation of kids). Little cozy village schools are being closed down in the name of efficiency and savings, etc.

What I’m trying to say is some of the reports may paint a picture of something that’s perfect and ideal down to every detail... suggesting every single teacher in Finland proudly subscribes to this great, empowering national educational ideology and knowingly practices it in their work. On the face of day-to-day schoolwork, however, it’s much less glorious: things may come with warts and shortcomings and all (like they always do), even the best teachers may be busy and stressed at times, having a bad day, and as a student, it certainly feels much more mediocre, mundane and unassuming than all the foreign praise might want you think. But of course, if we’re repeatedly getting these high scores in international comparisons by doing things the way we do... more power to us, I guess.

One of the details that gets mentioned a lot in the foreign media is how the Finnish students address their teachers casually, chatting away with them on a first-name basis, or very nearly so, instead of the teachers being sprinkled with courteous bows and honorifics and other “manners” trickery which is supposed to establish authority and put you in your place... but that’s pretty much reflective of how the Finnish society, at large, works today, so it’s remarkable only if you take it out of the Finnish context.

I have no way of comparing the Finnish system to the systems in other countries (except by random anecdotal evidence, of course) but the thing that has not plagued the Finnish school system this far — but which is apparently a great deal of concern in some other countries — is a high level of social and material (maybe even cultural) inequality among the general/local student populace, and the society at large. While it would be interesting to see how the Finnish school system could cope with that challenge, I sincerely hope Finland as a society will never quite “advance” to the point where we would need to find out.

[Rip]

Another thing mentioned in the video is the lack of private schools. There actually is at least one private school in Finland (Anna Tapion koulu, which is also a boarding school, no less.)

Actually there is quite many more of them, especially in Helsinki, but most of them follow pretty ordinary curriculum.
http://www.yksityiskoulut.fi/yksityisko ... tyiset.htm
http://stadindemarit.fi/uutiset-politii ... i-tunteita

[Rip]

I've gotten the impression here in FF that not everyone with kids in the system agrees with the glowing international reports.

Couple of the things that come to my mind:
The PISA rankings I think largely reflect better results among the not so good students, educational achievements in other countries, when they have been bad, often been really bad. This is of course very good for average Finnish pupil and the society, but perhaps of lesser importance to those parents who thin their family is above the median anyway.

In the reading and writing scores the Finnish language has a benefit. The language is a pain for most foreigners to master, but if you're born here and learn to speak it naturally as a child, learning to read and write it afterwards takes a lesser effort than with most languages (South Koreans have been doing good in that respect too). Related to that, it has not hurt that traditionally (things certainly are changing at least in and around Helsinki) number of immigrants has been low. Neither of these two are things the educational system itself would have had an effect (if we don't actually count Mikael Agricola as a part of the (modern) educational system).

[Jukka Aho]

Another thing mentioned in the video is the lack of private schools. There actually is at least one private school in Finland (Anna Tapion koulu, which is also a boarding school, no less.)

Actually there is quite many more of them, especially in Helsinki, but most of them follow pretty ordinary curriculum.
http://www.yksityiskoulut.fi/yksityisko ... tyiset.htm
http://stadindemarit.fi/uutiset-politii ... i-tunteita

I was trying to think of privately funded “normal” (or “elite”) schools not subscribing to any specific pedagogic or religious ideology, and I kind of filtered out the latter category in my mind, thinking it more as “ideological” than “private” (as in “elite”, “for the more well-offs”) as such. But you’re right, of course.

As one would expect, there are lots of Steiner schools and schools promoting Christian values in that list. There’s a single Jewish school as well.

I was wondering about the funding since that’s one of the primary factors differentiating a “public school” and a “private school” in many other countries (I guess), but Wikipedia says:

Suomessa yksityiskoulut ovat nimestään huolimatta taloudellisesti täysin riippuvaisia julkisista varoista niiden varainhankintaan kohdistettujen erilaisten rajoitusten (kuten kiellon kerätä oppilailta lukukausimaksuja) vuoksi, ja erityisesti investointeihin ne tarvitsevat yleensä julkista rahoitusta tai erityisiä rahankeräyksiä.

which translates as

“Despite their name, Finnish private schools are fully dependent on public funding. This stems from the legal limitations placed upon the methods they can employ for acquiring funds, such as the prohibition of collecting term fees from the students. Private schools usually require public funding or special fund-raising campaigns, especially for investments.”

The Wikipedia article also states that some foreign language schools are an exception to the rule and they are allowed to collect term fees, nonetheless.

It appears the association running the school must be non-profit. It also needs a license from the Ministry of Education. Apparently such licenses are not granted automatically; I faintly recall there were some news stories some years ago about an association which had long been trying to get a permit for founding and running a Christian school in some locality but their applications were rejected several times in a row for reasons I can no longer remember.

Most private schools are required to follow the national curriculum, the exception to this being some foreign language schools (again.)

I’d say private schools lead a quiet existence in Finland and rarely appear in public discussion. Magazines are in the habit of publishing stories about the Steiner schools from time to time, though, probably because a school subscribing to some other pedagogical ideology than what is the norm in the country — and subjecting children to it — is seen as mysterious and intriguing, maybe even suspicious.

[jahasjahas]

How well do you think Cenk Uygur understood and correctly reported what he was talking about, Jukka?

It felt a bit like he was going through some facts he read somewhere without truly understanding the big picture, like he was doing a presentation in school. But I suppose you can't except more from a tv host.

First of all, he starts by saying that the old pre-peruskoulu system was "doing terribly", which sounds pretty dramatic and simplistic. The motivation for peruskoulu was equality, and for a good reason it seems, but I don't think "canceling kindergarten and pre-school" was a part of it. The teachers were already respected and highly educated (at least at the end of the old system).

Saying that "it's harder to get into a school to become a teacher than it's to get into a school to become a lawyer or a doctor" might be good tv, but it's not that simple. The percentages are about the same, but I'd wager that the people who attend the Faculty of Law or the Faculty of Medicine entrance exams are better motivated and have done the prep courses (which aren't cheap), while the Faculty of Behavioural Sciences sees much more student hopefuls who just "go there and give it a try", so the competition won't be as fierce.

And how well do you think primary education in Finland matches or lives up to the characterizations and global lionization it has recently enjoyed?

I believe we were lionized years ago.

[AldenG]

(Minor correction to my comment above: Cenk has moved to Current TV now, which has a much smaller viewership than MSNBC but is politically like-minded. I see several of both networks' shows mostly on DVR and so the lines blur for me, especially since Cenk hasn't been the only host to move from MSNBC to Current TV.)

[Jukka Aho]

Here’s an opinion piece written by Tiina Keskinen, a teacher of the Finnish language at the Pyynikki School (grades 7 to 9) in Tampere.

• Puheenaihe: Näin minä päivittäisin suomalaista koulua — Miten sinä?

The column gives her personal view on how the teaching methodology in Finnish schools should be revised. She also asks suggestions and experiences from the readers and has indeed received 13 pages of them, as of this writing.

[Rosamunda]

There is also this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Finnish-Lessons-E ... 0807752576

Reviewed here:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... tion=false

There are also interviews with Pasi Sahlberg on YouTube.