Job and Child - how to organize?

[Myria]

The actual German school system just underwent another survey:
In German:
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/wiss ... 75,00.html
In English:
http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/cps/ ... /98067.htm

And about modern childhood:
http://healthland.time.com/2011/01/11/c ... -amy-chua/

To run free over fields and meadows, playing in the woods as a child in your spare time is a romantic and very antediluvian vision. Forget it!

Out there we are competing with 1.2 milliard people from India and 1.5 from China. If you want to keep your houses, your jobs, your health, your lifestyle and if you want to keep companies like Nokia alive - our children need to become the best engineers, the best scientists, the best mathematicians and the best businesspeople - they do need a lot more education and skills compared to what we learned and did about 30 years ago in some old public school.

[Upphew]

To run free over fields and meadows, playing in the woods as a child in your spare time is a romantic and very antediluvian vision. Forget it!

All the time... all the time... :/

As in I did that (well if you switch meadows and fields to forest and military training grounds...) in my childhood. I'm not so sure that the x-box-generation gets better start to their life working harder in the school and playing x-box after that. I played modern warfare too... so not so much have changed in that regard. I cycled to the marketplace to buy me a gun... oh and before that I did some chores and stuff to get the money for that... kinda like in the real life: you work your ass off to get something you want. And got some exercise while playing.

Out there we are competing with 1.2 milliard people from India and 1.5 from China. If you want to keep your houses, your jobs, your health, your lifestyle and if you want to keep companies like Nokia alive - our children need to become the best engineers, the best scientists, the best mathematicians and the best businesspeople - they do need a lot more education and skills compared to what we learned and did about 30 years ago in some old public school.

Not saying that those numbers shouldn't be respected, but... It isn't the primary school (that should leave time for child to be child, imho) that makes best engineers etc. And it has been the primary school system that has shone globally. After that the results seem to be mediocre, but is that the fault of primary education? It sure can be, but I don't feel that way. What is your opinion on that?

That last paragraph was written while I had excellent song by Queen playing in my head:
"Pressure pushing down on me
Pressing down on you no man ask for
Under pressure - that burns a building
down
Splits a family in two
Puts people on streets
It's the terror of knowing
What this world is about..."

Do we put too much and too early pressure on the children?

[CH]

To run free over fields and meadows, playing in the woods as a child in your spare time is a romantic and very antediluvian vision. Forget it!

Why? Seriously! I see plenty of kids doing that, why should we forget about it?

Out there we are competing with 1.2 milliard people from India and 1.5 from China. If you want to keep your houses, your jobs, your health, your lifestyle and if you want to keep companies like Nokia alive - our children need to become the best engineers, the best scientists, the best mathematicians and the best businesspeople - they do need a lot more education and skills compared to what we learned and did about 30 years ago in some old public school.

I see you swallowed the scare tactics they seem to be using in the US hook, line, and sinker. First of all... what proof do you have that drilling the kids from the time they take their first steps is going to actually accomplish this? Second... why do they need to be the best? And third... what they really need to be is to be innovative... I don't see how "let's keep them 7/24 in scool" is accomplishing that. And... as Upphew said... primary school is not where you accomplish "best x". I honestly don't see how having the kids burn out in primary school would accomplish anything... and that is what is happening. Oh, and in the US, for instance, with lots and lots of standardised tests from more or less the first grades forward... kids are being taught to pass the tests, because school funding is tied to how well the kids do. I don't see how that is doing anything to actually get the "best of the best". Good universities... sure... teaching kids how to think for themselves... excellent! Endless learning for kids... nope. Kids need to be kids.

If you are going for "tiger mommy", you are in the wrong country.

[skye]

Additionally you forget that not 100% of the population wants & needs to the best engineer, the best scientiest, etc. etc. - they are very happy to have a normal life as a shop assistant, a nurse or a kindergarden teacher. So, do you also wanna drill your little kid 24/7 if he/she will later on be very happy working a normal job with a moderate income like millions of other people do, who are not in the board of some company or having a job at NASA?

It's not about putting kids in classes the whole day, it's about teaching them how to make the best out of their talents & abilities - and letting them grow up as children. And yes, even kids today should be still allowed to run free over fields & meadows - or visit a normal public school that doesn't produce the top elite of the country, but just gives them a good education to later build on depending on what they wanna do with their life.

[CH]

or visit a normal public school that doesn't produce the top elite of the country, but just gives them a good education to later build on depending on what they wanna do with their life.

And this is really the foundation for Finnish primary schools. It is in no way, shape, or form geared to produce the crème de la crème. It is geared to provide a good basic education for everyone, which means that it is geared towards good averages, not really to support the best students or for the students to achieve the best results. There are no "gifted" programs, no pull out programs for extra studies... doesn't mean that gifted children get no support, but... in practice not that much really.

To OP... may I ask... did you move to Finland solely based on some perceived edge that the schools here would give your child? It kind of sounds like it from your writing.

[Hpslm]

To the OP,

tl;td: Relax, take a deep breath and see how it goes. You can't judge things beforehand.

You state you were planning on moving to the country with best schooling system but judging from your comments you migh lack the fundamental understanding of what makes it one of the best systems. I don't know if you see yourself the logical fallacy in finding out the best system based on your opinion and then expecting the best system measurably to be similar on what you think is the best.

As a "product" of this system, I would really have not had it any other way. Kids learn a lot of each other, from play, from hobbies, from video games, from finding out things to do themselves, getting used to being alone, compared to endless hours in class rooms. If one wants, one can always later speed thru and graduate from a University in their early twenties - all with the human pace of Finnish primary school system. But honestly, who wants to just study and not enjoy life too? We are likely working to when we're 70. I think it is gonna be a lot more fun to remember the crazy stuff I did university when I am +50 than the thought "Glad I got into working life 2 years quicker." Also, I think I learned a lot more of life that way too.

I've also studied in North-American high school. Which was a breeze, mathematics a couple years behind and simplified, hobby-subjects, non-existant school food, easy exams. Our lukio prepares one rather sufficiently to University and you don't do general studies in University.

Nowadays, I think South-Korea and the like do a bit better than us, with endless schooling though. Were you do desire something like that, those should be your target countries.

But honestly, how endless repetive learning patterns make for better engineer material than the one who played with legos, built sand castles, played Minecraft and had a pleasant chilhood? University is for the actual knowledge gathering.

[Yousra Bouzaiane]

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[Flossy1978]

Gees.... Stay in the good ol' US of A..... if it's so much better.

I think you've gone off your rocker because you don't understand the system here. You think if the child isn't worked to death, then the education and future life of the child/children is not as good as the USA, who in my opinion put TOO MUCH pressure on small children.

The Finnish Government for instance thinks children should stay children for as long as possible. That's why they don't start school till much later in life than many other countries. Which means they also graduate from high school a little older than other children. Which in turn I believe helps because they're more mature when it comes time to face the real world.

For your information the schooling in Finland is much better than America. It constantly ranks as being well above America in lists. Probably percentage wise there are a whole lot more better off educated people in this country than America thanks to the free education and the way children are taught.

Most children go home alone after school. My son does and so do all of his friends. Ranging from the age 7-9. It's not illegal here. It's safe and the children know how to entertain themselves while they wait for their parents. I don't believe any child is left at home for hours upon hours after school. Perhaps some small children are, but a majority aren't. And there are places you can put your child in the 1-2 grades after school if you don't want them at home.

There is nothing on the television here during the days, so forget about your child sitting and watching telly while waiting for you to get home.

Take away the net ability or change your password on your computer so you child doesn't know it. Then that solves that problem.

Most after school activities like tennis, soccer, swimming, scouts etc..... happen later in the afternoon, not during the day straight after school. Even then, many children go themselves to said activities. Children in general just aren't pushed like American children.

Hell, look at America compared to Finland.... Look at all the f*cked up kids killing parents, shooting up schools etc..... Obviously we are doing something right here in Finland....

[biscayne]

You most likely had an excellent experience in the USA because:

- you sent your child to a fee-paying school with a low teacher-pupil ratio, and you paid for a lot of after school activities which may have been attached to the school instead of being located elsewhere, thus not so much taxing around. You also paid for those summer camps which are "normal" in the US because parents get so little annual leave. In Finland you and your partner together could easily have the entire summer off by combining your annual leave with a little overlap, and that is how it is done

- you lived in an expensive area with high local taxes (for example Greenwich Ct....) which meant that the "local" public schools were saturated in the high local taxes and correspondingly very good

As with moving anywhere, just adapt a little, and you will see it will all work out just fine. Finnish schools ARE excellent, and they are good for EVERYONE, not just the wealthy. It's called social justice, and for all our faults here in Euroland, it's a prinicple we are pretty fond of. The world has become a global market place and sure, your child will have to be able to compete, but take it easy, you know even if you send a child to the best private school in the world, there is no guarantee of anything. Look on the flip side of the coin, you have kids from tough parts of the US who cannot find Europe on a map, didn't you have a beauty queen who thought Europe was a country????? In Finland your child will get a good education and perhaps learn child-centred skills which have been lost in the US - playing outside, learning to use public transport, being independent and not taxied everywhere, an appreciation of nature, stillness and the lost art of sometimes just being happy as a kid and not worrying about competing in a global market...............................

[tummansininen]

Finnish kids have a ton of freedom

Instead of becoming mere couch potatoes, though, it gives them the skills to learn to entertain themselves. And further, to look after themselves and organise themselves. It's completely normal for 7yos here to turn up alone at the library and sit and read for an hour, alone, or use the computers. Our local library has Läksy-Help where one of the staff will help them with any schoolwork between 1 and 3pm.

Outside, in the school grounds, the play equipment is full of kids socialising and playing. Don't underestimate the skills they are learning from this. They are all capable of getting themselves to and from school (including changing buses/trains) and of checking their watches to head home at the right time that was agreed with their parents beforehand. Or perhaps they're going to a piano lesson, if it's been arranged.

Perhaps part of the excellent educational result here is the fact that children in Finland don't have helicopter parents. It takes some adjusting (on the part of the PARENT) when we are used to children who are endlessly scheduled. But your child will benefit from it if you allow them to learn some responsibility for themselves.