is 10 kg of stones sufficient?

[saunabeginner]

hello all,
finally i built a saunaroom in my home and am now in the process of choosing a heater.
i live in japan and i could find only two sauna heater distributor here; tylo and misa.
my sauna room dimension is: width 160cm depth 140cm height 210cm = 4.8m3

i am leaning to tylo sport 6kw or combi 6kw over misa sunny 4.5kw.

but tylo's 6kw range has only 10kg of stone capacity... whereas misa's 4.5kw has 15kg.
tylo's 4.5kw has only 7kg, which i guess too little a capacity...

i have researched about heaters for quite a while and noticed that even the smallest heater has at least 12kg of stone capacity.
iknow of course they are made in finland(sauna land), and tylo is a swedish manufacturer.

i want to bathe for 3~40 minutes at a time in relatively low temperature(60~70C), throwing ladlefull of waters(100
~200dl) every 5 minutes or so.

so, for the way i want to bathe mentioned above, is 10kg of stones sufficient for enough loyly?

and general opinion about swedish heaters?

thanks for your input in advance. real finnish sauna culture have not reached japan yet.....

[onkko]

Your question is wrong, 1kg of stones is enough if heater can keep up and 1000kg of stones isnt if it cant.
Stones do add longevity even if heater isnt up to its task and do help but its not really major point.
For example my great grandfathers smoke sauna has huge pile of stones because you just couldnt keep fire up, you would die , so you had store all heat in stones but sauna in my home has far less stones because fire is there to heat them up.

I would generally accept what finnish sauna stove makers say, if they say its ok for 5m2 then it is. Everything goes for personal preference and i assume finnish sauna stove makers take that in account.

For example my childhood sauna. We childrens did go there first so it wasnt so hot and löyly was regulated so it wasnt too hot to us, after we left dad did throw !"#¤% of water and was really red and steaming when he got out. That was with basic, normal, finnish stove.

i want to bathe for 3~40 minutes at a time in relatively low temperature(60~70C), throwing ladlefull of waters(100
~200dl) every 5 minutes or so.

No you dont, you can take minute or two of that kind of punishment.
Normal finnish sauna has about 5-10l bucket of water what is more than enough for sauna experience including clearing sweat out of your eyes or just throwing it around.
And 40 minutes... well if youre drunk and do have pauses then maybe in total time. generally thats way too long.
And you dont throw water every 5mins, you throw it when you feel so. and you use normally 1dl cup. Throwing 10dl would be murder and cause anger.

[rinso]

throwing ladlefull of waters(100
~200dl) every 5 minutes or so.

I think you got your dl and ml mixed up.

relatively low temperature(60~70C)

This might be to low to get the real löyly. If the temperature is to low and you throw water on the stones to often, you get a high relative humidity and you don't get the waves of löyly, just an unpleasant feeling.

[Jukka Aho]

i live in japan and i could find only two sauna heater distributor here; tylo and misa.
my sauna room dimension is: width 160cm depth 140cm height 210cm = 4.8m3

Sauna stove manufacturers often have various brochures and product-specific installation manuals available for download on their sites. They typically contain some discussion on technical details, such as what would be the correct heating capacity for a given room size and the required amount of stones.

Here’s a list of links to the most well-known Finnish sauna stove manufacturers:

• Narvi (Narvi, Kota, Aito)
• Helo
• Harvia
• IKI
• Misa
• Vuolux
• Sydän-kiuas

Even if their products aren’t available in Japan — except maybe as expensive imports if you’re willing to pay for shipping and duties — you’ll probably be able to find some useful information on their websites for comparison to the products that are locally available.

While you’re at it, check out the website of the Finnish Sauna Society as well. They have some information about saunas in general (see here and here) and also these instructions on how to bathe in one.

There’s also a sauna society in Japan, and Finnish Sauna – Design and Construction, a book giving detailed guidelines on constructing saunas based on common Finnish practices and building codes. (It’s an English edition of the original Finnish book, check out the sample images.) You might want to check out this website as well.

[Upphew]

and general opinion about swedish heaters?

Dunno about heaters, but I've heard enough stories about Swedish saunas and sauna goers and how they don't prefer löyly, so I have a hunch that the heaters are more aligned to that style.

This might be to low to get the real löyly. If the temperature is to low and you throw water on the stones to often, you get a high relative humidity and you don't get the waves of löyly, just an unpleasant feeling.

I too would up the heat to 70-80 and take more breaks, if it feels too hot.

[saunabeginner]

thank you for your replies. i have been researching about finnish sauna for several months and almost couldnt find anything more than general information.
even manufacturer's web sites did not give me the clear idea of how much water one can throw with spesific amount of stones in any given temperature settings, etc.
besides, i do not know anyone that has a sauna in their home and japanese public sauna forbid people to throw water on the stones(so you fins wouldnt call them a "sauna", i know. )
so please keep in mind that real finnish sauna experience and loyly is almost totally unknown to me.

now, there are something a little unclear to me. for example;

Your question is wrong, 1kg of stones is enough if heater can keep up and 1000kg of stones isnt if it cant.

do you mean, (if heater can keep up) the stone temperature, or room temperature?

Stones do add longevity even if heater isnt up to its task and do help .

please explain a bit further about this

No you dont, you can take minute or two of that kind of punishment.
Normal finnish sauna has about 5-10l bucket of water what is more than enough for sauna experience including clearing sweat out of your eyes or just throwing it around.
And 40 minutes... well if youre drunk and do have pauses then maybe in total time. generally thats way too long.
And you dont throw water every 5mins, you throw it when you feel so. and you use normally 1dl cup. Throwing 10dl would be murder and cause anger.

of course i meant to say 1dl instead of 100dl though i am rather ignorant about sauna, i can imagine what would happen if one throw 10 litre of water on the hot stones.
also, i meant to let you know that i wanted to bathe in temperature of not more than 80C, total 40~45 minutes, 10~15 minutes for each round, for 3~4 rounds
per session.
"throwing water every 5minutes" is just for example, my point is how humid one can get with 10kg of stones.
if it does allow me to throw that amount of water at least, i thought 10kg would be okay....

[saunabeginner]

This might be to low to get the real löyly. If the temperature is to low and you throw water on the stones to often, you get a high relative humidity and you don't get the waves of löyly, just an unpleasant feeling.

what do you mean by "real loyly"?
so you dont like those heaters with steam generator which enable you to bathe in low temperature and high humidity?

jukka, thanks for the links. i wish if i had read the book before i made my sauna, they architects prepared pvc(vynl) cable for connection which is not reccomended by finnish manufacturer and laid the cable for the light near the ceiling.... sigh...

and you believe it or not, even normal, most basic sauna heater costs around(usually more than) 2500 euro in japan.
thats why i am so carefully gathering information.

and general opinion about swedish heaters?

Dunno about heaters, but I've heard enough stories about Swedish saunas and sauna goers and how they don't prefer löyly, so I have a hunch that the heaters are more aligned to that style.

i see. i now remember that even japanese distributors told me they didnt bother to throw water at all, even though they say on their website " you can throw water onto the stones on these heaters to get comfortably humid environment in the sauna" ....
but to my understanding, its not sauna without loyly.

[tuulen]

thank you for your replies.

You are off to a good beginning. As onkko said, Finnish sauna stove manufacturers "rate" their stoves for the size of the sauna room they are designed to work with, and that is a good measurement standard. That rating is a good place to begin, but also the sauna room should include a thermometer and a humidity gauge.

It requires your personal time and experience to know how to heat the sauna to the right temperature and to the right humidity, the best combination for you.

Get the stove hot, but not too hot, then add water, but not too much water, and enjoy! (Ordinarily: 70°C - 80°C + a small amount of water ~ 0,25 l.)

[Upphew]

now, there are something a little unclear to me. for example;

Your question is wrong, 1kg of stones is enough if heater can keep up and 1000kg of stones isnt if it cant.

do you mean, (if heater can keep up) the stone temperature, or room temperature?

Stones do add longevity even if heater isnt up to its task and do help .

please explain a bit further about this

Think it like a riding down a hill: you can go slowly up (low rated heater) but have nice ride down if the hill is high enough (lots of stones), you don't need high hill to have fun, if you can end up on top of the hill fast (powerful heater). So with the good old smoke sauna, you heat couple of tons of stones first and that's it, you just bathe without any extra energy put into the stones. As you usually can't fit that kind of mass to the "regular" sauna, you have to have a way to put more energy to the stones during the bathing. Keeping the stones hot is the primary goal, as you get the ~100°C steam out of it and thus the air is heated quite rapidly with a bit of water.

[onkko]

and you believe it or not, even normal, most basic sauna heater costs around(usually more than) 2500 euro in japan.

How is import taxes/delivery if you order one from finland? You get gold plated kiuas with stones from moon decorated with diamonds for that price
This is basic electric stove http://www.taloon.com/sahkokiuas-helo-c ... Group=2557 for 5 to 9m3 and its 148e + 18e delivery + 25kg of stones (10e?). I cant be arsed to check what kind of electricity you have so i dont know if you can use that but one i installed 15years ago had multiple voltage possibilities etc.

What about contacting finnish embassy, i think they atleast should know where to get proper stove.

[tuulen]

and you believe it or not, even normal, most basic sauna heater costs around(usually more than) 2500 euro in japan.

You get gold plated kiuas with stones from moon decorated with diamonds for that price

Harvia makes excellent stoves!

I have big, wood-burning Harvia stove, imported from Finland to USA, and I paid 3.500+ €, more than $5,000. Yes, it came with stones, but there are no diamonds.

[Jukka Aho]

jukka, thanks for the links. i wish if i had read the book before i made my sauna, they architects prepared pvc(vynl) cable for connection which is not reccomended by finnish manufacturer and laid the cable for the light near the ceiling.... sigh...

Just in case, here’s a couple of more direct links to some of the material that is available on the manufacturers’ sites: Narvi, Helo, Harvia. The Harvia installation manuals (see here, for instance) also contain general information about sauna and bathing. Helo appears to have some interesting manuals and brochures online as well.

There are also these older sauna threads on Finland Forum which you might find interesting.

Modern “design saunas” might even have fiber-optic lighting with adjustable presets for different moods or spotlights. But generally speaking, a basic no-frills family sauna has something like this, fixed relatively low on the wall. See here, here and here for some examples.

One of the things you certainly don’t want to overlook is proper ventilation and air circulation in the sauna room. The Harvia installation manuals, for example, include some illustrations and guidelines on that subject. If the ventilation is badly designed or insufficient, it could be difficult to remove humidity and moisture after bathing, possibly leading to problems with mold. Sitting in the hot room is also not too great an experience if there’s no fresh air coming in and the room is just getting stuffier and stuffier over time.

As for löyly, there are no rules. The “correct” amount and frequency of water thrown on the rocks greatly depends on personal preferences of the bathers, the size of the room, the capacity of the heater, how much time has passed since the last ladleful, etc. You will generally find you want to “ease in” the steam at the beginning, taking your time, enjoying the heat and only throwing water on the rocks occasionally. After sitting there for a while, you might enjoy a spurt of 3 or 4, maybe even 5 ladlefuls in a rapid succession (subject to the properties of the sauna room and the heater) for a sharper, more biting burst of steam, making your skin tingle and having to bend down a bit on the bench, only to ease off back to a more infrequent pattern of ladlefuls. Or a quick visit to the shower room, possibly taking an intermediate shower, or even sitting outside on the garden-facing porch (if such thing or anything comparable is accessible adjacent to the sauna facility) with a towel wrapped around you, possibly enjoying a sip of beer or some other refreshment before heading back to the hot room for another cycle.

This search on Etuovi.com, one of the largest real estate websites in Finland, could give you some ideas. Or at least it lets you spy on how Finns generally build their home/family saunas. I simply searched for Finnish apartments and houses for sale which include a sauna. If you keep clicking on those hits, many of them have a picture gallery — use the arrowhead icons to browse the images — with some photos of the sauna and the shower room. Or at least a picture of a floor plan, in which the sauna is often marked with the letter “S” (as in sauna) or “LH” (as in löylyhuone). (“PH” = pesuhuone: washing room, shower room.) See the picture galleries here, here, and here, for instance.

For some more inspiration, see here for a cottage-by-the-lake sauna idyl. Anything quite like that is of course unattainable in an urban or suburban environment, but those living in a detached home with a garden may still arrange their sauna to be easily accessible from the back porch, or similar. Or maybe build a separate garden shack sauna: click, click, click, click. Last but not least, there are even mobile saunas!

[Upphew]

Back to the topic: even if 10kg is enough, they won't last. Repeated heating and cooling will erode the stones and even if you don't change all the stones, you should empty the heater/stove and clean the stones and heater and replace broken stones once a year.

[Karhunkoski]

And if the logistics of moving a large weight of stones is a PITA, then maybe consider an alternative. I know of two saunas here that use old ceramic electricity insulators in place of the traditional stones.

They work just fine, in fact the "cup" side of the insulators actually holds some water for a short time, which releases löyly over a slightly longer period, which enhances the experience (especially in an electric sauna, which can have a drier and harsher environment than their wood-fired counterparts). You can but special devices that achieve the same thing, they are small granite cups that you place in between the sauna stones. You fill the cup with water, which slowly boils and released the löyly. With the ceramic insulators, you get this effect for no additional effort or cost

[Karhunkoski]

Like this:
http://www.sauna-aitta.fi/Saunakko