Sentencing on shop lifting

[khan200us]

Hi

advise and attach some useful information links.

Best Regards

[AldenG]

To me you seem overconfident that what you write here will not come back to haunt you.

Even in Finland, once you sign something in a place like that, it can be awfully hard to say later that you didn't know what you were signing. Paper has more weight than oral statements and their word has more weight than yours. If they say they gave you a translation, the court will believe them, not you. Even if they lie. And they know that perfectly well.

Maybe it wasn't a confession you signed, but I would assume that to some extent it was.

[lateef]

To me you seem overconfident that what you write here will not come back to haunt you.

Even in Finland, once you sign something in a place like that, it can be awfully hard to say later that you didn't know what you were signing. Paper has more weight than oral statements and their word has more weight than yours. If they say they gave you a translation, the court will believe them, not you. Even if they lie. And they know that perfectly well.

Maybe it wasn't a confession you signed, but I would assume that to some extent it was.

I refuse to accept that they will do that. This society is built on honesty and trust.This is not Iran or Saudi Arabia where they chop off your hand. Who is right and who is wrong is not the matter of discussion here.

[AldenG]

Because you paid a fine, I suspect the matter is ended as far as criminal procedures are concerned. But I can't know.

Administrative procedures are another question. Whether you get to stay in the country depends on where you're a citizen, what kind of papers enable you to be in Finland, etc. And it doesn't seem like a very good idea to discuss that here. Others may know what typically happens with foreign students who plead to a minor offense and pay a fine.

I hope someone can recommend a place where you can get some sound legal advice, even if only a little. At the very least you need to find out exactly what you signed, because at this point it's pretty much set in stone. It is probably part of some record, but whether it's more like a traffic offense or more like a misdemeanor, or worse, depends on what the paper says. It could conceivably require you to appear somewhere else at another time.

I certainly agree that Finland is not the second or third world and Finnish police are among the better of first-world police. But wherever you go, most are honest and diligent and some are not. Just like the citizens they oversee. You may have gotten a bad deal. What did they do to "make" you sign something you couldn't read? You seem to have too rosy a picture of what can happen even in first-world criminal-justice systems. In many countries you probably think of as much better than Iran or Saudi Arabia, people have been tricked into signing confessions to extremely serious crimes, even murders.

You may have some recourse against the police, but here again you need professional advice and I hope someone else can tell you where to get some for free. You have to balance the potential pluses and minuses. You may have gotten off easy, although it sounds like every party to the transaction has something to hide.

[rinso]

This society is built on honesty and trust. I might be a crook who did a wrong act but this is not Iran or Saudi Arabia where they chop off your hand if you steal.

That's why people (and the police) take a negative stance towards people who violate the system. And since they cannot cut of your hand, they look for other ways to screw you.
Since it is theft, it is not a minor misdemeanor. But you were caught before you left the shop, so they settled for a fine. Be happy and pay. It might go on your record, but a single fine is not held against you when you have to renew your permit.
If you make waves you'll end up in court and that can have more serious consequences.

I hope someone can recommend a place where you can get some sound legal advice

http://www.asianajajaliitto.fi/english
But be aware that you probably have to pay everything yourself. (As long as you are not summoned in court, using a lawyer is your own choice.)

[Cory]

I did steal but when I saw them coming after me, put it back.

Morally, I suppose, if you were stealing to provide food or medicine for a loved one who was at risk of starving and/or dying... I would have some sympathy for you.

If this was not the case... Prices are high enough in this country and for those of us working and providing for a family, it's hard enough to keep the budget in check without prices being raised to compensate for loss due to shop-lifting.

BTW... in your home country, would you have had your hand chopped off if you'd been caught?

[AldenG]

It's also quite possible the police did you a favor because of the language problem and possibly other reasons. Or maybe they went strictly by the book after all. One way or the other it sounds like the kept you out of court. So you should be careful about being too angry about how you were treated -- even though it sounds like the security people cheated and committed a separate offense by planting other merchandise on you and, strictly speaking, the police may have committed some kind of procedural error by not getting you a translator or consular contact. Then again if you were not officially arrested but only questioned, your rights might be less than you assume.

Sometimes righteous anger is used as a distraction from shame.

I still don't know what you signed, but from reading other conversations just now by Finns who were caught shoplifting, it appears that although your offense will remain on the police books (which are very private), you won't have a real criminal record of the kind that could be discovered by the university or future employers. That would only come if you received some jail time. Or so I'm reading on Finnish forums.

If you are detained or arrested again, anywhere in Finland, the police will see your prior offense and it will affect their decisions at that time. Other than that, this episode may be behind you now. Once you find someone to translate your copy of the thing you signed, that is...

[AldenG]

Here's a second-hand statement about shoplifting from a police chief inspector. I'm copying it from where someone else quoted it since it's from years ago and I can't find a current original source.

"Näpistys
Tiedotus 11.12.2006 11:10

Poliisin hallinnoimissa rekistereissä merkintä ko. asiasta ja siitä seuranneesta sakosta näkyy poliisiasiaintietojärjestelmässä viisi vuotta sakon tuomitsemisesta lähtien. Rikosrekisteriin merkintää ei sakkotuomiosta tule.

Poliisiasiaintietojärjestelmään ei ole pääsyä poliisin ulkopuolisilla tahoilla. Tiettyihin turvallisuuden kannalta merkittäviin työtehtäviin työnantajalla on mahdollisuus tilata poliisilta ns. turvallisuusselvitys työnhakijan suostumuksella. Tällöin tietojärjestelmässä oleva sakko saattaa tulla esille. Yleisesti ottaen yhdellä näpistyssakolla ei juurikaan ole merkitystä nuoren tulevaisuuden kannalta.

Ilkka Laasanen, rikosylikomisario

The offence [of shoplifting] and the fine paid are visible in the police register for five years from the date of the fine. Offenses punished by fine are not noted in the criminal register.

The police register is not accessible to third parties. For certain security-related positions an employer can order from the police something called a security report with the consent of the job applicant. In this event a shoplifting offense might show up. Generally speaking, a fine for shoplifting has little real significance for the future of a minor. [Actually he says "young person." The original question was asked on behalf of a minor.]

Ilkka Laasanen Chief Inspector.

[rinso]

Then again if you were not officially arrested but only questioned, your rights might be less than you assume.

Indeed. Don't think the American TV series set the standard for the legal system. Here the police can deal with smaller problems on their own without starting a lot of legal mumbo jumbo. You can always complain and take the official route. But as I said, you might have to pay for it yourself.

[Pursuivant]

In the police station, they spoke Finnish. I asked for an interpreter. I asked for a lawyer and I asked to speak to the Embassy of my country. The police did not provide any. Are the arrested or detained people have any basic legal rights?

You weren't "arrested", you were "taken hold of". This isn't America or the UK, you have no "rights", the police has them. If you want to read the chapter and verse, go to http://www.finlex.fi and find Pakkokeinolaki from 1987.

No caution was given at the time of arrest.

What caution?

The police made me sign a document in Finnish, again I asked for translator which was denied. They fined me €60.

Sounds like you were given a "rikesakko", which is "on-the-spot" fixed fine.

"In simple and straightforward cases the police may carry out a simplified pre-trial investigation, provided the statutory punishment for the offence is restricted to a fine or maximum of six months' imprisonment. Such offences include endangering traffic, petty theft and unlawful use of narcotics.

In a simplified pre-trial investigation the questioning and other aspects of the investigation can often be performed at the place the offence was committed. In this case the pre-trial investigation is the responsibility of the police patrol present at the scene.

In the investigation of traffic offences which are subject to a summary penal judgement or fixed fine, a simplified pre-trial investigation is undertaken by recording the information given by the persons questioned, for example, on a summary penal judgement or fixed fine form."

1. What are the chances that the retail market had the Video footage and if so, do I have a legal right to view it before pleading?

These days pretty high.

2. Am I going to be tried in a court of law?

Basically, the "court trial" was that paper you signed. It was a plea bargain of sorts. As they don't want to waste court time.

3.Was I charged for a criminal offence or was it just a fine?

The police gave it, so its a criminal offense. Municipal payments like parking tickets are "just fines". However, it won't show on your "draft of criminal records"

4.Do I have under the Finnish criminal law such as being cautioned at the time of arrest, right to have an interpreter, right to have a lawyer and the right to speak to my Embassy for consular support?

Well, you weren't "arrested".

5. Is this going to stay on my record and will I have any trouble in visa renewal?

Yes, it'll be in the police records for a while, and maybe.

6. Is this going to stay on my record as a criminal offence. I am planning to move to USA and they will require a police certificate with no criminal record.

The "draft of criminal records" shows verdicts handed in court, usually prison sentences. Not on the spot fines. However they will stay in the police's "rap sheet" for a time.

7. If I was denied of certain rights, where can I complain? Where can I challenge this fine?

Where can we complain, to your parents?

[Karhunkoski]

I did steal but when I saw them coming after me, put it back.

Morally, I suppose, if you were stealing to provide food or medicine for a loved one who was at risk of starving and/or dying... I would have some sympathy for you.

If this was not the case... Prices are high enough in this country and for those of us working and providing for a family, it's hard enough to keep the budget in check without prices being raised to compensate for loss due to shop-lifting.

[007]

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2010103 ... 1_uu.shtml

paradise

[Logic]

Based on another thread by the OP where he states he's here as a student with his family, it seems he underestimated the costs of living in Finland. Unfortunately, he has no access to social assistance and I'm speculating that he might've provided a not so accurate proof of funds at the time of his permit. I don't think the OP will be able to sustain a life here especially that he's also responsible for a family and if he has already started to resort to illegal ways to provide for them then he needs to re-evaluate his situation and eventually discover that it might be better if he returned to his country.

[rinso]

he has no access to social assistance and I'm speculating that he might've provided a not so accurate proof of funds at the time of his permit.

If that is true, he'll have problems with the renewal of his RP since they are checking the funds now much more careful.

[Pursuivant]

Thats what you get when you believe what people say, or rather - believe all the "positive thinkers" and none of the "ooh so negative".