Religion, or lack thereof?

[sysyphus]

Do you drink strong coffee?

Yupp, the Americano is my cup of choice, take it three to four times a day. Helps kill my appetitie and maintain my weight. I used to weigh over 200 pounds three years ago and then I discovered the virtues of having your coffee black.

[tuulen]

Tuulen just makes me al the more determined to prove him wrong and sing Finnish folk songs fluently within a year

If ever a language could represent a national culture, Finnish more than qualifies!

There is a "correct" and "proper" Finnish language, but then there is real Finnish communication.

I welcome your effort to prove me wrong, my friend, but perhaps you could be in for a surprise.

And I wish you the best of success, as Finnish really is a delightful language.

But Finnish is not Germanic and is not Slavic, and as an English speaker you are in for a big challenge.

[tuulen]

If ever a language could represent a national culture, Finnish more than qualifies!

There is a "correct" and "proper" Finnish language, but then there is real Finnish communication.

I've asked this of you a couple of times before but never received a reply. Perhaps they've been missed.

Have you lived in Finland? Are you fluent in the language? Would you consider yourself "Finnish" in your behaviour?

I am dual-national, American/British, and I own land in Finland, way up north, but I have no interest in moving permanently to Finland for reasons having to do with income taxes. My introduction to Finland came through my wife's parents, she and they having moved to the US from Finland more than 60 years ago, and it seems fair to say that, by modern standards, my view of Finland is very conservative.

[Jukka Aho]

In a country like Finland, which gives only a token nod to the existence of an historical tradition of acting like one believes in God, an atheist ethical society is like a society joined to share and discuss the belief that aliens have not visited the earth in UFO's or that the Yeti does not exist. Or a society to discuss the proposition that the sky is blue. One has to ask how interacting with members is any different from interacting with everybody on the street.

A therapeutic support/recovery group for members who have suffered abuse or discrimination in the name of religion makes a certain amount of sense, but here again it would be quite a small membership.

There’s a non-profit association called Uskontojen uhrien tuki (“Support [group] for the victims of religions”). They’re most often contacted by people who have, at one time, been members of the many smaller Christian(-or-so) denominations which operate inside or outside of the two national churches *) and are not necessarily considered mainstream but consist of fervent believers with their own religious customs and doctrines.

These smaller denominations are no threat to outsiders but some of them have been known to maintain a rather harsh psychological/emotional(/economical) grip on their members who, in the worst case, end up being completely rejected and ignored by their family and friends, should they learn they have become non-believers, in an attempt to “punish” them and maintain the integrity and “purity” of the religious society.

I’m not sure how often the above-mentioned association gets contacted by people from the “non-traditional” religions (from the Finnish viewpoint!) these days, such as Scientologists or Moslems or Hare Krishnas or whatever, but since at least the number of Moslems has been on the rise due to recent immigration I’d imagine also the number of contacts with that background has increased.

As for mainstream Christianity vs. atheism/agnosticism, the only public debate that has been conducted lately has been a rather mild-mannered exchange of (published-in-a-book-form, public) letters between the Finnish astronomer and professor of astronomy at the University of Turku, Esko Valtaoja (Finnish Wikipedia article on him) and the former archbishop of the Diocese of Tampere, Juha Pihkala. See here for more information on that.

When it comes to political parties, the only party with an openly religious agenda is the Christian Democrats, lead by Päivi Räsänen... who has at times stirred up some debate on same-sex marriages and the pricing and availability of alcoholic beverages, as well as the idea of favoring Christians among asylum seekers over people of other religions.

_____
*) The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland and the Finnish Orthodox Church

[Tiwaz]

Sorry, it was a bit off-topic to discuss the language thing, it's just that black & white statements tend to annoy me. "Knowing Finnish will make your life fuller and easier in Finland" or something like that would have been fine and a completely true statement.

It wasn't off-topic, I raised the question myself a few posts ago. In a way I can empathise with Tuulen. The Finns have been an extremely homogeneous society for all of their 95 years as a nation and skepticism of foregners is only natural. But Tuulen's hardline views and your objective moderate ones are proof of diverisity of opinion.
Tuulen just makes me al the more determined to prove him wrong and sing Finnish folk songs fluently within a year

You know, you err badly in assuming that "Finns" have existed 95 years. Society does not equal state, Finns have been Finns since... Well, nobody really knows! Area known as Finland was inhabited pretty much immediately after ice receded, and current Finns are descendants of those people. Some groups moved in, but they mixed up so long time ago that result is...
Finns.

[sysyphus]

Sorry, it was a bit off-topic to discuss the language thing, it's just that black & white statements tend to annoy me. "Knowing Finnish will make your life fuller and easier in Finland" or something like that would have been fine and a completely true statement.

It wasn't off-topic, I raised the question myself a few posts ago. In a way I can empathise with Tuulen. The Finns have been an extremely homogeneous society for all of their 95 years as a nation and skepticism of foregners is only natural. But Tuulen's hardline views and your objective moderate ones are proof of diverisity of opinion.
Tuulen just makes me al the more determined to prove him wrong and sing Finnish folk songs fluently within a year

You know, you err badly in assuming that "Finns" have existed 95 years. Society does not equal state, Finns have been Finns since... Well, nobody really knows! Area known as Finland was inhabited pretty much immediately after ice receded, and current Finns are descendants of those people. Some groups moved in, but they mixed up so long time ago that result is...
Finns.

Tiwaz, if you read my post again, you will see I said 'the Finns have been an extremely homogeneous society for all their 95 years AS A NATION'. No group of people come to originate out of nowhere! I know that the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus wrote in 98 A.D about the 'Fenni' people from Germania. I am not sure abiut this but most historians put the first settlers to have come to present day Finland in 9000 BC! The ones who settled in the interior were the 'Hamme' people and the Sami came about 6000BC. The Finno-Ugarin language was developed by the nomadic russian tribes from the east. I still have to find a book on the origins of the Finnish. This is all I could get from my anthropology books.

[sysyphus]

Tuulen just makes me al the more determined to prove him wrong and sing Finnish folk songs fluently within a year

If ever a language could represent a national culture, Finnish more than qualifies!

There is a "correct" and "proper" Finnish language, but then there is real Finnish communication.

I welcome your effort to prove me wrong, my friend, but perhaps you could be in for a surprise.

And I wish you the best of success, as Finnish really is a delightful language.

But Finnish is not Germanic and is not Slavic, and as an English speaker you are in for a big challenge.

I am aware of the monstrosity of the challenge that lies ahead, but am I supposed to cower and accept defeat without even trying? I just need some sisu If 300,000 Finns can hold off 2 million heavily armed, supposedly superior Russian soldiers, I dont see why anything cant be possible.

P.S. I am not a native English speaker. English is the fourth language I speak after Urdu, Punjabi and Siraiki.

[sysyphus]

In a country like Finland, which gives only a token nod to the existence of an historical tradition of acting like one believes in God, an atheist ethical society is like a society joined to share and discuss the belief that aliens have not visited the earth in UFO's or that the Yeti does not exist. Or a society to discuss the proposition that the sky is blue. One has to ask how interacting with members is any different from interacting with everybody on the street.

A therapeutic support/recovery group for members who have suffered abuse or discrimination in the name of religion makes a certain amount of sense, but here again it would be quite a small membership.

There’s a non-profit association called Uskontojen uhrien tuki (“Support [group] for the victims of religions”). They’re most often contacted by people who have, at one time, been members of the many smaller Christian(-or-so) denominations which operate inside or outside of the two national churches *) and are not necessarily considered mainstream but consist of fervent believers with their own religious customs and doctrines.

These smaller denominations are no threat to outsiders but some of them have been known to maintain a rather harsh psychological/emotional(/economical) grip on their members who, in the worst case, end up being completely rejected and ignored by their family and friends, should they learn they have become non-believers, in an attempt to “punish” them and maintain the integrity and “purity” of the religious society.

I’m not sure how often the above-mentioned association gets contacted by people from the “non-traditional” religions (from the Finnish viewpoint!) these days, such as Scientologists or Moslems or Hare Krishnas or whatever, but since at least the number of Moslems has been on the rise due to recent immigration I’d imagine also the number of contacts with that background has increased.

As for mainstream Christianity vs. atheism/agnosticism, the only public debate that has been conducted lately has been a rather mild-mannered exchange of (published-in-a-book-form, public) letters between the Finnish astronomer and professor of astronomy at the University of Turku, Esko Valtaoja (Finnish Wikipedia article on him) and the former archbishop of the Diocese of Tampere, Juha Pihkala. See here for more information on that.

When it comes to political parties, the only party with an openly religious agenda is the Christian Democrats, lead by Päivi Räsänen... who has at times stirred up some debate on same-sex marriages and the pricing and availability of alcoholic beverages, as well as the idea of favoring Christians among asylum seekers over people of other religions.


_____
*) The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland and the Finnish Orthodox Church

This is exactly what I was looking for, an insiders viewpoint. Going to look up the debate and uskontojenuhrientuki.fi. These smaller denominations that you speak of and how they exert control over its members through psychological abuse; they sound more like cults, dont they? Like the moonies fr instance?
Have there been any incidents of religious hate crimes there in recent history?

[Jukka Aho]

This is exactly what I was looking for, an insiders viewpoint. Going to look up the debate and uskontojenuhrientuki.fi. These smaller denominations that you speak of and how they exert control over its members through psychological abuse; they sound more like cults, dont they? Like the moonies fr instance?

There’s a whole spectrum of the smaller Christian denominations. Some are rather moderate and do not differ from the teachings of the main Evangelical Lutheran Church much at all, only having a special emphasis on a couple of different things and maybe stricter views about the importance of certain parts of the Bible. Some others maintain a closely-knit community on their own and have special rules which their members are expected to adhere to — such as no alcohol or spending time in bars, no contraceptives, no fooling around until marriage, no TV or much of other “worldly” entertainment. (Laestadians are big on this. ”Conservative Laestadians frown upon "sins" such as dancing, television, birth control, rhythmic music, make-up, earrings, movies, school sports, tattoos, and cursing.”)

Some are not associated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church at all but operate on their own. This means they need to run their church houses or meeting places with their own money, as opposed to the EL Church which gets tax money collected from its members. These kind of independent denominations often have the expectation of regularly donating a share of your income to the church. (Pentecostalists, The Evangelical Free Church of Finland, and the Seventh-day Adventists are like this, for example.) Yet others have roots in Christianity but the other denominations do not really always see them as Christian because of the other elements they have added. (Jehova’s Witnesses and Mormons spring to mind.)

I guess Laestadians and Jehova’s Witnesses have featured with some regularity in connection with what some might call religious abuse — and Laestadians even had a recent multi-incident pedophile scandal — but of course you can’t paint them all with that broad a brush.

The problems there are are usually associated with established religious organizations — maybe “sects” rather than “cults”. Or depends on your definition of “cult”. But Finland does not appear to be too big on “actual” cults as I would define the term (small groups of maybe 20 to 50 persons lead by a eccentric charismatic leader). There’s one such case from the recent years featuring these elements, though: Tapani Koivuniemi’s “Monday Circle” or “Milk Bar”.

Maybe Nokia Revival would count as well, but I have not heard of problems related to them. (Well, revival is what Nokia really needs, but this movement is not connected to the cellphone maker!)

Have there been any incidents of religious hate crimes there in recent history?

Yes. Jussi Halla-aho, a controversial political blogger highly critical of immigration based on the idea(l) of multiculturalism (especially as it relates to Islam and economic migrants posing as asylum seekers), and now also a Member of Parliament, was sentenced to fines for “breach of the sanctity of religion” for the comments he made in his blog about Islam and Prophet Mohammad. See the linked article for more information.

In other news, rapes committed by people of foreign origin have risen to a share of 45% last year, which, according to Aamulehti, calls for “directed measures”. These may or may not be religiously or at least culturally motivated as according to the statistics, those foreign-born perpetrators often come from countries where the dominant religion/culture places more restrictions on how “decent” women may appear and present themselves in public.

[AldenG]

Cory managed to say it before me, but I also expect that with opportunity, application, and enough coffee, you are likely to be one of the people who does learn to speak Finnish well. But even though "acceptable" Finnish is a pretty vague term, I would bet you won't be there in the six months you expect -- maybe 18-24 months and even that would be highly exceptional.

I don't agree, however, with the mainstream view that high caffeine consumption sustained over years is psychologically or biologically harmless. My personal observation is that at least in some people, probably those who crave and react to it the most, it can cause pathological glandular adaptations with real-life consequences. Of course at your age, I wouldn't have paid any attention to such warnings even if there had been someone to offer them.

[tuulen]

I am aware of the monstrosity of the challenge that lies ahead ...

At its core, Finnish is a very systematic language, having relatively few "exceptions" to its rules. But there are about a million and one rules to learn, and it is important to learn each and every one of those rules. The best approach is to begin at the beginning, with such a simple thing as the alphabet and its correct pronunciation, and to then build your knowledge upon that, one step at a time.

Again, however, there are two forms of Finnish, one being "correct" and "proper" and the other being quite abbreviated. The correct and proper form is the one to learn first, as that teaches the rules of grammar, and learning those rules will introduce you to the abbreviated form.

[sysyphus]

maybe “sects” rather than “cults”. Or depends on your definition of “cult”..

I take the classical definition of a cult; followers of an unorthodox religious sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. Nokia's revival would certainly qualify!

The other denominations seem quite out of the ordinary. Nothing you wouldn't expect in any other developed country. As long as they don't exert any political influence, it isn't a problem, IMHO.

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses go about knocking on people's doors, handing out pamphlets, preaching their way of life?

The wikipedia articles on Jussi Halla-aho were the most intriguing of the lot. It would be unfair to brand him xenophobic or Islamophobic. He makes some salient arguments against immigration. My beef is with refugees - political asylum seekers specifically. They are a problem and an issue that needs to be handled with extreme tact and delicacy. Factually, they are an unwanted burden on any society. When a state grants them refuge and the decision seems to backfire (increasing crime stats), the public uproar would be justified.
Jussi's stance on Muhammed being a pedophile could not have been any truer. The wikipedia article incorrectly reports that the prophet of islam married a 9 year old girl. Ayesha was six years old when she was locked in holy matrimony with the then 51-year old Prophet. The marriage was consummated at the age of 9 - this remains a matter of debate among those Muslim who dare raise the subject. But Jussi goes on to make sweeping statements like 'Islam is a religion of Pedophilia' (wikipedia), which is erroneous and not to be expected from an academician. Islam is a violent violent religion, rooted deep into patriarchy, but there is much more to it than just pedophilia loll. Christianity wasn't so different when it first came on the horizon. But fortunately, the West has been sensible enough to constantly revise and reform Christian dogma with the passage of time. There was a time when birth control and contraceptives were considered a sin by the Church. And pedophilia in the ranks of Christian priests and other ordained servants of God remains a constant menace and source of embarrassment for the holy see. Islam has been regressive in contrast and the world continues to pay the price.
About the increasing number of rape crimes by foreigners. The statistics on this subject have been highly contentious across the globe. The most common arguments against them are that foreigners are by and large, under far greater scrutiny with law enforcement agencies ready to release the hounds the moment any alien puts a toe over the line. It may be that the locals are guilty of as many if not more rape offences, but the alien steals the limelight. This is then aggravated by the media's need for sensationalism. With immigration already being a matter of great debate among the Finns, the newspapers know just what would send their sales through the roof. (I speak from experience as I am currently interning at a local English daily and we can't go a singly day without doing a scoop on the Afghan refugees spilling in to the country from the north!)
Last but not the least, Africans seems to be universally frowned upon. Our intelligence and narcotics agencies seem to blame Nigerians for the majority of drug and sex trafficking in the country (those cases which can't be traced to Afghanistan). Somalis seem to be causing the headache at your end. Africa is plagued by diseases, ethnic genocide by dictators is the 'back page' news on every newspaper, poverty is pandemic. Imagine for a moment, had we been born in such inhumane conditions, would we have turned out differently?

[sysyphus]

But even though "acceptable" Finnish is a pretty vague term, I would bet you won't be there in the six months you expect -- maybe 18-24 months and even that would be highly exceptional.

By acceptable I mean a level of proficiency that allows me to get through everyday communication like at the shops, banks, in the restaurants and exchanging pleasantries (if that isn't so novel anymore!). I am sure it would take more than two years before I can challenge a Finn to a verbal duel in his/her mother tongue

Of course at your age, I wouldn't have paid any attention to such warnings even if there had been someone to offer them

Tell me about it! I have to learn almost everything the hard way koi. Once I am there, I am gonna turn it up a notch and make my coffess irish
I guess caffeine dependency can cause you to get cranky when you don't get your morning cuppa. It's a diuretic. Looking from the wisdom of western medicine, anything that makes you pee more can't be bad. My mum, though, is always going on about how it'll damage my liver or worsen my ulcers n stuff. But then she don't know I smoke like a chimney and that is more certain of upsetting my ulcers

[sysyphus]

P.S. I am not a native English speaker. English is the fourth language I speak after Urdu, Punjabi and Siraiki.

You have lovely written English skills! You obviously have an aptitude for language and you have the right attitude so I have no doubt that you'll do just fine!

How generous of you Cory, I appreciate it

[sysyphus]

I am aware of the monstrosity of the challenge that lies ahead ...

At its core, Finnish is a very systematic language, having relatively few "exceptions" to its rules. But there are about a million and one rules to learn, and it is important to learn each and every one of those rules. The best approach is to begin at the beginning, with such a simple thing as the alphabet and its correct pronunciation, and to then build your knowledge upon that, one step at a time.

Again, however, there are two forms of Finnish, one being "correct" and "proper" and the other being quite abbreviated. The correct and proper form is the one to learn first, as that teaches the rules of grammar, and learning those rules will introduce you to the abbreviated form.

Tuulen, what I can do is to make sure I am well versed in the building blocks of the language - alphabets and pronunciation - before I reach there. For me, when learning a new language, reading comes first and, it is followed by writing, speaking and understanding in that order. At least the words are pronounced exactly how they are written. Pneumonia wouldnt be namonia and psuedo would be 'pasoodo'.