Living standards

[foca]

There are people from different lands here. I would like to compare living standards in different EU countries. Let us say that one has an income of 5000 after tax. What one can afford in countries other than Finland ?

[atas]

At what conclusions are you aiming at? If somebody earns 5K / month in Finland (disposable income), that same guy/gal for the same work in another country could earn as low as 1500 / month, depending on the cost of living. And 5K isn't kind of big even for Finland?

[foca]

The question is : you get 5k after tax (let us consider it is not work related income) what life style you can afford for a " standard " family, let us say of 2 adults and 2 children in a given country? I am interested in personal experience, if possible

[Tullynessle Turnip]

In England you can buy 5000 Mars Bars @ 1 GBP each.

[Tullynessle Turnip]

...actually I make that out to be 4427 Mars Bars if we is talking Euros.

[misu]

You can compare the cost of stuff in different cities here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

[foca]

You can compare the cost of stuff in different cities here: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

I have seen that one, but personally I am more interested in abstract feeling of people relating a certain income. There are many ways to assert your living standards , or perhaps , better to say your consumption ability (in kilocalories that one consumes , cost of a m3 in an apartment or burgers in local mcdonalds ). But somehow it is still not quite accurate...

[Liam1]

I understand what you are getting at Foca

I have lived in UK, Belgium, Sweden and Finland.

I would say that I feel that we can live well here but luxury items are more expensive here. This is not captured in cost of living comparisons as it is hard to compare many things that are very expensive here (e.g. getting a really nice meal if you don't live in downtown Helsinki) while other higher costs can be avoided. In a narrow definition, I'd say that I can buy the least with my income here vs the other countries I have been in (though harder to compare with Sweden as lived in small town or Stockholm when I was a DINKY!). Just judging on what I classify as luxury items - cars, eating out, holidays etc

Driving a nice car can take €500, in extreme cases even €1000 more of your monthly disposable income here vs other countries (I did the maths on company cars when I moved here from Belgium and wanted the same car). I also think that the cost of servicing / tyres/parts etc are vastly inflated. E.g. we had an XF and they wanted €750 for a replacement key (UK 250 GBP). I think it also shows on the roads where the average car here is nowhere near as nice as you would see in say Germany, Belgium or the UK, even though Finnish PPP adjusted GDP is no worse.

Then all luxury services that can be done yourself / avoided are very expensive. e.g. I think our cleaners cost ca €20 / hr. In Belgium it was €7,50 (both get tax relief so even net is still much cheaper). €20 for a car wash (Be/UK €5). €20 to dry clean a suit etc. Ditto eating out: Having an Ok meal is a bit more expensive here, but having a nice meal with wine - 50% higher - 100% if you factor in the costs of getting to a nice restaurant as you basically have to get to central Hki (in all other cities/suburbs I've lived, a nice restaurant was walking distance). Similar story with nice food - just because the normal choice in standard supermarkets is so poor, we need to go to Stockmann if we want anything nice - while Stockmann is clearly more expensive than a Carrefour or Tesco, the fact remains that if you want a nice steak or fresh fish, proper cheese you need to go to Stockmann or similar here (the open air markets are the same price).
Holidays are very expensive here, though I think there is a justification (distance to the resorts, market size) although even hiring a mökki seems dearer than in other countries.


My biggest bugbear though is the "Espoo 2 tier health service". i.e. pay very little to get your public treatment which is very poor (long waiting times) or pay a lot to go private. (insurance helps but not on existing conditions). It feels that the govt has deliberately pushed quick access / preventative healthcare into the luxury category rather than resource it to be a right. I hear it is better outside the capital, but this shouldn't be a poscode lottery.

A lot of luxury goods (physical products) are also much more expensive here, but that doesn't really matter because you can buy them at the "EU minimum" via the web / on travels. e.g. I just bought an eternity ring for half of the "sale" price offered in Finland. For once my Finnish wife agreed as the carat, colour & clarity of the diamonds are certified internationally so the standard Finnish marketing reposte that the "Finnish quality is higher" is invalid. Ironically on luxury goods, it makes living here a bit cheaper, because when prices are 25% - 100% higher, it pays to find the best price elsewhere. If they were 10-20% higher, it'd not be worth the effort.

You asked about what you could buy with 5000 after tax, but as Finnish tax is quite progressive it means that you need a high gross salary. i.e. there is a double whammy that every extra euro earned is taxed heavily AND what's left buys you less than elsewhere! But, it sort of evens out if you live differently. Cars expensive to buy and run? We sold our XF 3 years on at the price we bought it new and have easily adapted to one car. Restaurants expensive? We have more picnics or BBq's which the kids prefer. Also there is a difference between standard of living and quality of life e.g. yesterday I cycled with my children on a safe cycle path from school, stopping at a large Angry Birds themed park on the way. All of this cost nothing and my kids thought it a real treat (both cycling and the park). In the UK / Belgium, I'd have collected them in a "nice" car and sat in traffic for 45 min, then to "treat them" , I'd have needed to drive again and paid for them to go to some play den.


The one thing that I haven't understand surrounds the other end of the income scale. How do pensioners / low income house owner survive the eye-watering bills that come for maintanence or mending anything that goes wrong in the house? e.g.it cost ~€1000 to defrost a water pipe during the last cld spell (had we not done it, the situation may have got a lot worse). How about healthcare? Even minor non prescription stuff from the chemist is very high priced. If you/your kid is feeling bad do you just take the appointment offered 8 days hence? I think it is here where Finland is really more expensive and must have the largest difference vs equivalently "rich" countries.

[riku2]

I think it's also relevant to compare the after tax income for the same kind of job across countries since in Finland those at the low end of the scale (shop workers, office receptionists for example) probably have quite a reasonable standard of living compared to those in more market orientated countries like the UK. Those at the higher end of the scale don't do so well in finland since the high end salaries are not so high (not as big a multiple of the shopworkers salary), the tax is much higher.
The result is probably a happy one though, the levels of crime are lower since there isn't the underclass you get in the UK. everyone in finland is reasonably well off but not many are spectacularly rich.

[Rip]

How do pensioners / low income house owner survive the eye-watering bills that come for maintanence or mending anything that goes wrong in the house?

Those that have savings may need to dig into them, for those that can't there are various various social benefits.

If you/your kid is feeling bad do you just take the appointment offered 8 days hence?

They been luckily healthy. They few times they haven't (or needed somebody patch up the signs of self inflicted violence) , I've gone to the waiting line and spent something usually probably bit closer to an hour than one half before somebody can see them. I know very many have private insurance (I don't, would not have paid off). I live in Helsinki.

[foca]

How do pensioners / low income house owner survive the eye-watering bills that come for maintanence or mending anything that goes wrong in the house?

I heard that many people "downgrade" when they retire (sell houses to buy flats , etc). But clearly 1500 EUR which is considered a good retirement income will provide a very "budgety" existence here if you have no savings...
The relatively new thing for not so lucky Finns is to move to Estonia after retirement.. 1500 eur make one rich there, and it is just 2 hours away from Helsinki.

As for health insurance, I am not quite sure how it works here long term. In essence one can maintain private insurance only till the first major problem. My wife had a breast cancer operation here (of course we went private). As soon as the bulk insurance sum has run out (the insurance company paid for operation, chemo , radiotherapy etc) the insurance company informed us that a new contract is not possible due to the nature of the illness (even though it is kept under control and, I sincerely hope, will not require any more expenditures). I inquired what if the current illness would not be covered, while other case would - the answer still no. My German friend in the same situation still can maintain private insurance (the premium went a bit up though - around 20 percent).
It seems that after the first major problem one has to go to the Public Health Service. I know some Finns who actually get loans to undergo more or less serious operations , since waiting list in the public sector is unbelievable...