New family reunification law - secure income requirement

How to? Read other's experiences. Find useful advice on shipping, immigration, residence permits, visas and more.
Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:40 pm

ajdias wrote:Is there a country where citizens face similar requirements if they want to come back with a partner and children?
Yes, Sweden, Germany, Canada, you name it.... Its quite common and if I am not mistaken actually already enforced in Finland albeit with lower income requirement. 2600 a month for a four person family is not a lot, no matter how you cut it, if you are supposed to be able to support your family without immediate need for resorting to welfare, which I think is reasonable toward the people who actually bank roll the state. Moving into a country is one thing, moving into a country with no livelihood apart from welfare bank rolled by total strangers is quite another.



Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

Rip
Posts: 5583
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:55 pm

Oho wrote: Yes, Sweden, Germany, Canada, you name it.... Its quite common and if I am not mistaken actually already enforced in Finland albeit with lower income requirement.

New is that this would apply to family members of Finnish citizens and in some additional cases for those here on humanitarian grounds. For other resident permit holders the discussed income limits are exactly those on migri tables that are applied now. Situation for those that are subject to EU-rules would not change.


Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:01 pm

Rip wrote: New is that this would apply to family members of Finnish citizens and in some additional cases for those here on humanitarian grounds. For other resident permit holders the discussed income limits are exactly those on migri tables that are applied now. Situation for those that are subject to EU-rules would not change.
After cursory reading, no...

http://www.migri.fi/moving_to_finland_t ... ily_member

"With regard to the definition of a family member, the family members of Finnish citizens have the same status as family members of citizens of third countries. The broader definition for EU citizens is not applicable in this case."


User avatar
Beep_Boop
Posts: 1969
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:29 pm
Location: Niflheim, Suomi

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Beep_Boop » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:18 pm

Rip is correct. Current regulations don't apply income requirements to family members of Finnish citizens and family members of residents who are in Finland based on humanitarian grounds.
Last edited by Beep_Boop on Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:29 pm

Beep_Boop wrote:Rip is correct. Current regulations don't apply income requirements to family members of Finnish citizens and family members of residents who are Finland based on humanitarian grounds.
Indeed I got it wrong, mea culpa.


gfunho
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:42 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by gfunho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:35 pm

Oho wrote: 2600 a month for a four person family is not a lot, no matter how you cut it, if you are supposed to be able to support your family without immediate need for resorting to welfare,

With 2600€ netto income, a family of 4 lives in e.g. very very fine.

Also, a regular master of science in engineering graduate working in e.g. Nokia commmunications, can get a salary of about 3500 brutto in one of the best possible cases and will not meet the requirement for the netto income. Salaries of post-doctoral researchers at the university also range the 3100-3600...

So e.g. if you are a Finn that was living in USA married with a USAn wife and two kids, you cannot bring her back to live with you in Oulu, Joensuu, Rovaniemi, Kajaani, even if you have decent salary that will let you support them.


User avatar
Cory
Posts: 3635
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:51 pm
Location: Turku

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Cory » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:04 pm

ajdias wrote:Is there a country where citizens face similar requirements if they want to come back with a partner and children?
Canada has similar rules. A very good job that supports the non-Canadian spouse + children OR one must get a wealthy Canadian sponsor to sign in blood that they will support the spouse if they are unable to get a job or their XXXXX in savings runs out. If I were to move back to Canada with my non-Canadian hubby, I'd need to go and find a job first or sell our home here to prove that we have enough funds to live on until he finds a job. All the while.. a rich non-Canadian immigrant can move on into the country on a whim in a very short period of time. It's a sore spot with many Canadian expats with foreign spouses.
Image


Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:46 pm

gfunho wrote: So e.g. if you are a Finn that was living in USA married with a USAn wife and two kids, you cannot bring her back to live with you in Oulu, Joensuu, Rovaniemi, Kajaani, even if you have decent salary that will let you support them.
Well tough beans, that's what you get with bloated public sector and relative to financial means generous welfare state based on residence. Anyway in the new, improved, open and multicultural Finland in the long run don't think there is any way around it. Tax payers well net tax payers would not put up with it. It wasn't a problem when it was maybe a few hundred if that a year, but in ten years time the number could easily rise to thousands if not tens of thousands annually and the new comers the odds are good would not be particularly well educated let alone employable.

The deal was supposed to be 'quid pro quo', but it has gone very one sided as of late and it is causing resentment.
Last edited by Oho on Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.


leisl
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by leisl » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:36 pm

But it's quite stupid and treats less-wealthy Finns poorly. Yes, yes, we all know it's tough to raise a family on one income, but there's no alternative when one of the couple has to move to the other country. One of them has to quit their job to move countries. There's no other way unless they work online. So be practical here... the solution is to just force couples to live apart? No. That is even more stupid than allowing them to live together in Finland on a tight budget until the other adult has a chance to integrate and get into the workforce.

Because it's the children it affects the most. When there are no kids, pretty much anyone with a full-time job can afford to import a spouse, especially if they'll be a student. But add a kid? No. It's discrimination against having a family ffs. And against children. Because children with a rich Finnish step-parent get to come. Children whose new stepdad drives a bus, tough luck, no Finland for you. Yay, let's hand out happy families only to rich Finns. The rest of you, no! Stay solo and learn to Skype your sweetheart. Maybe post a teddy bear to the stepkids who don't know you.

This flies utterly in the face of equality that Finland claims to be important. Kids don't get to decide what their family earns. We don't pick and choose which kids are allowed to go to school based on how much money their parents have and we shouldn't decide which kids are allowed to be supported by a Finnish dad based on whether he has megabucks bling. If they wanna come here and live on a shoestring, let them. Finns should have the right to make that call for themselves. And you'd probably agree if you had a significant other in another country and stupid laws said you can't live together.


Rip
Posts: 5583
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:40 pm

gfunho wrote: Also, a regular master of science in engineering graduate working in e.g. Nokia commmunications, can get a salary of about 3500 brutto in one of the best possible cases and will not meet the requirement for the netto income.

Unclear how they would handle lapsilisä (which would be acceptable "income" for the residence permit). Would it require three to move in (at least officially) before the forth one, or could one put it already into advanced application as it would be basically automatic ~200€/month (two kids) that would not need to be covered by net salary?

I note they have also accepted savings and family help to cover shortages in income even under current laws.

The income limit for municipal welfare benefits (toimeentulotuki) is about 1400€ for family of four + (in Helsinki) up to somewhat over 1000€ for housing costs so the migri limit isn't much higher.


gfunho
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:42 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by gfunho » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:47 pm

leisl wrote:But it's quite stupid and treats less-wealthy Finns poorly. Yes, yes, we all know it's tough to raise a family on one income, but there's no alternative when one of the couple has to move to the other country. One of them has to quit their job to move countries. There's no other way unless they work online. So be practical here... the solution is to just force couples to live apart? No. That is even more stupid than allowing them to live together in Finland on a tight budget until the other adult has a chance to integrate and get into the workforce.

Because it's the children it affects the most. When there are no kids, pretty much anyone with a full-time job can afford to import a spouse, especially if they'll be a student. But add a kid? No. It's discrimination against having a family ffs. And against children. Because children with a rich Finnish step-parent get to come. Children whose new stepdad drives a bus, tough luck, no Finland for you. Yay, let's hand out happy families only to rich Finns. The rest of you, no! Stay solo and learn to Skype your sweetheart. Maybe post a teddy bear to the stepkids who don't know you.

This flies utterly in the face of equality that Finland claims to be important. Kids don't get to decide what their family earns. We don't pick and choose which kids are allowed to go to school based on how much money their parents have and we shouldn't decide which kids are allowed to be supported by a Finnish dad based on whether he has megabucks bling. If they wanna come here and live on a shoestring, let them. Finns should have the right to make that call for themselves. And you'd probably agree if you had a significant other in another country and stupid laws said you can't live together.
This, this and this.

I cannot put it better. We are talking about finns not being able to bring their wifes and kids back to their country. If my home country decided something like this, it will make me very very angry, and would definitely do all that is in my hands to put the people/party that drafted this nonsense out of the government.


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by AldenG » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:55 am

More and more Finnish expats don't look back after a while, and the country becomes increasingly a place for leftbehinds and refugees. Not that expats really want to do that, exactly. It's just that the hassle of returning with fresh enthusiasm and new ideas and values comes to seem less and less attractive. I hear a good deal of that in different shades of meaning from people in the local community of over 800 expats here.

Of course it's not this one thing in particular, especially as these changes aren't in effect yet and may not happen at all. It's just the whole... at the moment I can't even think of a word in either language for it. It's the authorities' increasingly detailed, tedious attention to the citizenry's every waking function, as though quality of life could be guaranteed by extrapolating the same kind of uncompromising yet capricious attention to detail wielded over the roadworthiness of vehicles. Call it minutiaecracy, minutiocracy, maybe? Expats seem to feel it's from another era, a sort of land that time forgot. They gradually lose their enthusiasm for the concept, leaving Finland to be more and more dominated by a kind of inbred bureaucracy digging in its heels against a tide of people from radically different cultures and standards of living who have zero interest in or perception of what ever made Finland Finland. Expat Finns aren't greeted warmly on returning by anybody but family. And least of all by authorities, who resent the resistance to pettifoggery that returnees often bring with them.

It's hard enough doing business with e.g. American authorities. But once expats start interfacing with Finnish consulates or authorities back "home," they start to realize it could actually be worse.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:41 am

leisl wrote: Because it's the children it affects the most.
In the cases painted here no, because the children would either be Finnish citizens or be entitled to obtain the citizenship essentially via notification. Thus the income requirement would only apply to the non citizen spouse if that considering he or she would be the other legal guardian, parent, of Finnish citizen minors living in Finland.

It would however apply to the non citizen children of a naturalized citizen, and even those would be relatively few because the rules would not apply to refugees. What it actually might stop is mail order brides or grooms and naturalized citizens from flying back to home country to marry and to bring their new spouse to Finland to live off welfare. I know I know, they do try to detect fake marriages but the incentive would be less.

What is being discussed is not just the negative right for family life but the positive right of imposing the welfare of those family members on total strangers, that is, its just 'quid' the 'pro quo' bit has gone missing in action.
Last edited by Oho on Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.


Rip
Posts: 5583
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:14 am

Oho wrote: It would however apply to the non citizens children of a naturalized citizen
Minors could have got the citizenship themselves at the same time.

I get the point that children, citizens or not would make (at least on the first reading of the text) it more difficult for the non-citizen parent to get residence permit as they would increase the required income without supplying that income themselves.

As it is this would have not at least been my first choice in tightening immigration rules. Putting back the income requirement to citizenship law, and making it a main rule that asylum seekers are sent eventually back if they do not actually become useful members of the society would seem better targeted, among other possible changes.


Oho
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:17 am

Rip wrote: I get the point that children, citizens or not would make (at least on the first reading of the text) it more difficult for the non-citizen parent to get residence permit as they would increase the required income without supplying that income themselves.
Now would they? Is it the overall size of the family or just non citizen members?

http://www.migri.fi/moving_to_finland_t ... equirement

I do not know if the general guidelines are changing but the way I read it is that the requirement is only dependent on the number of non Finnish family members. Actually they really cant apply it on citizens because such limitations would be essentially unenforceable. I mean a couple with two kids with Finnish citizenship's: Citizen parent flies in advance and applies for family reunification for his or her spouse (1700€ rule is applied). The kids returning to their country of citizenship fly in with the non citizen parent, job done.


Post Reply