New family reunification law - secure income requirement

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leisl
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by leisl » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:01 am

Oho wrote:
leisl wrote: Because it's the children it affects the most.
In the cases painted here no, because the children would either be Finnish citizens or be entitled to obtain the citizenship essentially via notification. Thus the income requirement would only apply to the non citizen spouse if that considering he or she would be the other legal guardian, parent, of Finnish citizen minors living in Finland.

It would however apply to the non citizen children of a naturalized citizen, and even those would be relatively few because the rules would not apply to refugees. What it actually might stop is mail order brides or grooms and naturalized citizens from flying back to home country to marry and to bring their new spouse to Finland to live off welfare. I know I know, they do try to detect fake marriages but the incentive would be less.

What is being discussed is not just the negative right for family life but the positive right of imposing the welfare of those family members on total strangers, that is, its just 'quid' the 'pro quo' bit has gone missing in action.
Actually it would still apply to Finnish children. Let's say Jussi is trying to move his Brasilian wife and three (Finnish) kids here - for arguments' sake let's say they've all been living in Brasil but he has managed to get a job in Finland starting soon. It's the wife who he has to prove support for.

Yes, the children have a right to be here, but not the wife. If his income isn't high enough to support ALL FIVE of them, HER application would not be approved.

And in reality that would mean either all five of them do not come or the wife stays in Brasil with the children. Do you think she'd really send the kids over and just stay in Brasil by herself. No.

Now if Jussi was an executive who earned a lot of money, it'd be approved.

Rich Finnish children get treated one way, ordinary Finnish children, another.



Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

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Oho
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:16 am

leisl wrote: Yes, the children have a right to be here, but not the wife. If his income isn't high enough to support ALL FIVE of them, HER application would not be approved.
Are you sure? Because I don't think you can enforce such a rule. Finnish authorities do not even have to know of the children when the application is made for the non citizen parent. The kids stay behind with the non citizen parent and fly in with him or her without Finnish authorities even knowing of their existence. I mean the citizen parent is only unifying single family member, the kids are just citizens returning to their country of citizenship.


leisl
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by leisl » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:48 am

Oho wrote:
leisl wrote: Yes, the children have a right to be here, but not the wife. If his income isn't high enough to support ALL FIVE of them, HER application would not be approved.
Are you sure? Because I don't think you can enforce such a rule. Finnish authorities do not even have to know of the children when the application is made for the non citizen parent. The kids stay behind with the non citizen parent and fly in with him or her without Finnish authorities even knowing of their existence. I mean the citizen parent is only unifying single family member, the kids are just citizens returning to their country of citizenship.
Practicalities in "getting around" the rule are one thing. Would your average person be expected to figure this out themselves, how to "cheat" the system? Your average punter would be honest in their application, that they have children to support. Shouldn't they have that right?

Or let's throw a spanner in the works and say that one or more of the children is a non-citizen (stepchildren). Back to square one.

You could say I'm playing devil's advocate but it's because as I noted earlier, I and my partner are a couple who would have failed the income test, and because the children concerned weren't citizens, there would not have been an option open to us. We would have faced similar problems trying to emigrate in the other direction, leaving us pretty much permanently separated. Or doing something stupid like having to have a child together just to be reunited. Can anyone say "anchor baby". That should be more distasteful to anyone who supports this law. Get someone pregnant and get your residency! etc.

We lived for years below the alleged "minimum" income threshold and we certainly didn't starve.
Last edited by leisl on Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.


Rip
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:52 am

Oho wrote: Are you sure? Because I don't think you can enforce such a rule. Finnish authorities do not even have to know of the children when the application is made for the non citizen parent. The kids stay behind with the non citizen parent and fly in with him or her without Finnish authorities even knowing of their existence. I mean the citizen parent is only unifying single family member, the kids are just citizens returning to their country of citizenship.
You do make me wonder how it would be applied in practice. I don't see any solid reason why they could not ask about all the other family members that are supposed to living together in Finland and canceling permits given based fraudulent information. ("two, five and eight year olds were really supposed to stay with their aunt, honestly" explanation would not be very convincing).

How it would actually be applied in practice is of course really impossible to say now.


leisl
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by leisl » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:55 am

There's a good chance that the Finnish children will be in the population registry, anyway.


Oho
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:59 am

leisl wrote: Practicalities in "getting around" the rule are one thing. Would your average person be expected to figure this out themselves, how to "cheat" the system? Your average punter would be honest in their application, that they have children to support. Shouldn't they have that right?
Average person? Certainly given that a below par person figured it out and I am not at all certain it would be cheating in any shape or form. I have not seen any definite take on the matter. Is the income restriction evaluated over all family members or just the non citizen family members and the person bringing them over?
Last edited by Oho on Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Rip
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:20 pm

roger_roger wrote:If you want to save budget then put the restriction stating the imported spouse is the responsibility of the ones who brings them and cannot claim financial aid from state for x number of years.

If you mean that they will not get financial help no matter what then that would require constitutional amendment. That will not happen. If you think we should start deporting them afterwards if they resort to social welfare that is not really a solution against the nationalities that we have difficulty in getting out of the country even with serious criminal convictions (it is not Americans or Chinese that reason for this law).

I already stated that I find this law only so-so my self, but your solution is no solution.


Upphew
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Upphew » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:23 pm

roger_roger wrote:I hate this law, it does nothing much then create a socio class difference in the community which the Nordic democracy have been against.
Crap law because of crap people. Sadly. My wallet just can't support everyone and their relatives who move here and who can't support themselves. Especially relatives who have no intentions, or at least who put no effort, to integrate here.
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Oho
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:52 pm

roger_roger wrote:I hate this law, it does nothing much then create a socio class difference in the community which the Nordic democracy have been against...
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gfunho
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by gfunho » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:59 pm

leisl wrote:
We lived for years below the alleged "minimum" income threshold and we certainly didn't starve.
This is part of my point. 2600€ netto might be tight for a family of 4 in Helsinki, but it definitely is not in a place like Oulu.


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Beep_Boop
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Beep_Boop » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:07 pm

Look, folks.
Asylum seekers/refugees who arrived from Iraq and Somalia in 2010/2011 are today Finnish citizens. They're able to import wives and large numbers of kids. In its core, the law is aimed at non-integrated asylum seekers, couch potato immigrants, etc. If it doesn't apply to Finnish citizens, then asylum seekers can simply wait 4 years and bypass the restrictions by becoming Finnish citizens. If you're a couch potato immigrant, you'll still be a couch potato in 4 years but you'll become a couch potato Finnish citizen at that point.

I repeat: The government is aiming this at directly-non-contributing immigrants in general. Blond Finns are merely collateral damage. You cannot apply laws to non-blond Finns and exclude the blond Finns without engaging in active racial separation. So this proposal is actually the least insane way to do this.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


AldenG
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by AldenG » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:24 pm

You could have a different rule for naturalized citizens. Yes, it literally creates "2nd-class citizens" but that is not an unheard-of thing. Nor is it fundamentally racist though it may de facto appear so.
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Beep_Boop
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Beep_Boop » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:43 pm

AldenG wrote:Yes, it literally creates "2nd-class citizens" but that is not an unheard-of thing. Nor is it fundamentally racist though it may de facto appear so.
I personally don't have an issue with it. It doesn't impact me one bit, and even if impacted me I'd still satisfy the conditions. So I don't have an active horse in this race.

The issue is that the way you and I see it is not the way the vast majority of voters will see it. There are tons of naturalized citizens from Russia, Estonia and Poland who have been working sub 2000-euro jobs. Now try to sell this great idea of separating them from "native" Finns to the constitutional review committee and the equality ombudsman.
Yes, the citizenship laws already create 2nd-class citizens when it comes to citizenship by declaration for citizens of the Nordics, but introducing even more laws like this won't be easy at all.

As a coalition government, if you want to introduce big changes like this, you want to cause as little friction as possible to allow to pass as easily as possible. A change that creates 2nd-class citizens in this day and age will definitely attract a lot more friction.
This proposal is probably one of the least problematic ways to introduce the change.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


Oho
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Oho » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:41 pm

roger_roger wrote: whatever it is, this is over-engineering for a small problem and not to mention that its inhumane to separate husband from wives and their children.
Well it may now be a small problem but rest assured, if left unaddressed, it would not be a small problem when the country starts getting up to 25'000 new naturalized citizens a year all of whom would be entitled to marry a gal or a guy from home village and fly him/her to Finland to live off dole.

More over, apart from the husband and wife you speak off in vast majority (perhaps ~99.9%) of cases nobody, and I mean nobody, is separating parents from their children. These people are making the choice for themselves.
Last edited by Oho on Fri Feb 19, 2016 1:46 pm, edited 5 times in total.


Rip
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:15 pm

roger_roger wrote:
Rip wrote:If you mean that they will not get financial help no matter what then that would require constitutional amendment.
Constitution is not written in stone, its normal to edit it from time to time. If the state sees they can really do huge savings with this then they might opt for it.
It would require support from opposition (2/3 in the parliament; a change that would be effective already before next elections 5/6). Considering how much support "open borders" policy has, that will NOT happen.


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