New family reunification law - secure income requirement

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gfunho
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:42 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by gfunho » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:21 am

roger_roger wrote:
You can discuss the salary gap between Helsinki and Oulu is very wide too....
I agree, but the income required is the same. So a person with a perfectly fine IT salary in Oulu or Joensuu, cannot re-unite his family because he does not reach the limit that is set mostly for people intending to live in Helsinki.

So, even "not poor" people cannot bring their families if they live outside of the capital, because of the salary gaps :)



Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

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betelgeuse
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:01 pm

One thing that doesn't really get enough attention in the discussions is that the numbers we are talking about are Migri's guidance. The law is written so that if you can prove you can survive on your own, you should prevail. So people should always keep in mind whether they are talking about Migri's policies (which can be adjusted by the courts as case law accumulates) or the actual change to the Aliens Act.


Caroline
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Caroline » Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:24 am

AldenG wrote:
Of course it's not this one thing in particular, especially as these changes aren't in effect yet and may not happen at all. .

If these changes happen, when would they go into effect?
Former expat in Finland, now living in New Hampshire USA.

Remembah whea ya pahked ya cah!


Rip
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:04 am

Caroline wrote: If these changes happen, when would they go into effect?
In theory it could happen fast. It says in the draft text they want to do it that way ("ensi tilassa"). If it is planned to have an effect on the number of asylum seekers it should be enacted before it gets too warm.

I am not holding my breath though. The government hasn't really earned a reputation of doing much anything fast.


Caroline
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Caroline » Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:05 am

Rip wrote:
Caroline wrote: If these changes happen, when would they go into effect?
In theory it could happen fast. It says in the draft text they want to do it that way ("ensi tilassa"). If it is planned to have an effect on the number of asylum seekers it should be enacted before it gets too warm.

I am not holding my breath though. The government hasn't really earned a reputation of doing much anything fast.

So according to the article, by summer of this year as I understand it?
Former expat in Finland, now living in New Hampshire USA.

Remembah whea ya pahked ya cah!


Rip
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:34 am

I consider the use of gross income for most KELA benefits as a way of (deliberately) penalizing families with only one working parent.

It does not work for the "toimeentulotuki" and I think it makes more sense that is also applied with similar standard.


terebee
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:04 am

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by terebee » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:17 am

I think this law is unfair for foreigners who have been living in Finland and are not "free loaders". I, for, instance have a permanent resident permit, have worked here since the day I arrived, for 5 years already. I am not married to a Finn and I gave birth to our baby last September. My husband applied for a resident permit here in Finland because I live by myself, have no family here and I needed him to be with me when I gave birth. We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me. They said that granting a permit to my husband was in no case "in the best interest of the child". Okay, so, I guess my child doesn't need his father, at all. I am angry because I have been a tax paying resident in Finland. I may not earn a high salary but I work hard and worked hard for the reason that I want to be reunited with my husband here in Finland. But, now, I feel like everything I worked for has been all for nothing. The income limits have already been imposed to non-Finns applying for family reunification. I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.


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rinso
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by rinso » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:14 am

terebee wrote:I think this law is unfair for foreigners who have been living in Finland and are not "free loaders". I, for, instance have a permanent resident permit, have worked here since the day I arrived, for 5 years already. I am not married to a Finn and I gave birth to our baby last September. My husband applied for a resident permit here in Finland because I live by myself, have no family here and I needed him to be with me when I gave birth. We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me. They said that granting a permit to my husband was in no case "in the best interest of the child". Okay, so, I guess my child doesn't need his father, at all. I am angry because I have been a tax paying resident in Finland. I may not earn a high salary but I work hard and worked hard for the reason that I want to be reunited with my husband here in Finland. But, now, I feel like everything I worked for has been all for nothing. The income limits have already been imposed to non-Finns applying for family reunification. I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.
Life is not fair.
I can agree with you that the income limit is to high in many cases.
The idea however was not to open the doors for as many people as possible, but to create a barrier against an uncontrolled influx. It will cause disappointment and grief. But it will also prevent families with a lifelong dependency on welfare.


intern101
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by intern101 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:29 am

terebee wrote:I think this law is unfair for foreigners who have been living in Finland and are not "free loaders". I, for, instance have a permanent resident permit, have worked here since the day I arrived, for 5 years already. I am not married to a Finn and I gave birth to our baby last September. My husband applied for a resident permit here in Finland because I live by myself, have no family here and I needed him to be with me when I gave birth. We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me. They said that granting a permit to my husband was in no case "in the best interest of the child". Okay, so, I guess my child doesn't need his father, at all. I am angry because I have been a tax paying resident in Finland. I may not earn a high salary but I work hard and worked hard for the reason that I want to be reunited with my husband here in Finland. But, now, I feel like everything I worked for has been all for nothing. The income limits have already been imposed to non-Finns applying for family reunification. I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.
I am sorry for your family's current situation. Although I am curious why didn't your husband apply before you have a baby? I think 1,700 is more achievable than 2200. What do you plan to do now? Did you reapply?


terebee
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by terebee » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:47 pm

rinso wrote:
terebee wrote:I think this law is unfair for foreigners who have been living in Finland and are not "free loaders". I, for, instance have a permanent resident permit, have worked here since the day I arrived, for 5 years already. I am not married to a Finn and I gave birth to our baby last September. My husband applied for a resident permit here in Finland because I live by myself, have no family here and I needed him to be with me when I gave birth. We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me. They said that granting a permit to my husband was in no case "in the best interest of the child". Okay, so, I guess my child doesn't need his father, at all. I am angry because I have been a tax paying resident in Finland. I may not earn a high salary but I work hard and worked hard for the reason that I want to be reunited with my husband here in Finland. But, now, I feel like everything I worked for has been all for nothing. The income limits have already been imposed to non-Finns applying for family reunification. I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.
Life is not fair.
I can agree with you that the income limit is to high in many cases.
The idea however was not to open the doors for as many people as possible, but to create a barrier against an uncontrolled influx. It will cause disappointment and grief. But it will also prevent families with a lifelong dependency on welfare.

Yeah I know life is not unfair whether or not you try to do good in this world. I wish they could have made a different set of rule for foreigners who are working their butt off to provide for their families and dream of one day being together in the same country. Again, rules are rules but then again, they could have considered those who work their asses off for their families in their home country. With those kind of income limits, you're practically stopping any kind of incoming foreigner from coming in to live in Finland. Maybe even turning off some potential foreign investors. Just my opinion.


terebee
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:04 am

Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by terebee » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:58 pm

intern101 wrote:
terebee wrote:I think this law is unfair for foreigners who have been living in Finland and are not "free loaders". I, for, instance have a permanent resident permit, have worked here since the day I arrived, for 5 years already. I am not married to a Finn and I gave birth to our baby last September. My husband applied for a resident permit here in Finland because I live by myself, have no family here and I needed him to be with me when I gave birth. We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me. They said that granting a permit to my husband was in no case "in the best interest of the child". Okay, so, I guess my child doesn't need his father, at all. I am angry because I have been a tax paying resident in Finland. I may not earn a high salary but I work hard and worked hard for the reason that I want to be reunited with my husband here in Finland. But, now, I feel like everything I worked for has been all for nothing. The income limits have already been imposed to non-Finns applying for family reunification. I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.
I am sorry for your family's current situation. Although I am curious why didn't your husband apply before you have a baby? I think 1,700 is more achievable than 2200. What do you plan to do now? Did you reapply?
We got married in the end of 2014 after 4 years of being in a LDR. I got pregnant right after and the income limits were different when we applied for his permit. So, it surprised me that the decision was based on the new income limits when we applied last June 2015. We just plan to leave Finland. There really is no point of staying here when the entire goal of working hard here to get your husband here is nowhere in sight. As I said, all my hard work, down the drain. And..yeah no one cares whether families are separated. They said it themselves.


Rip
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Rip » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:49 pm

terebee wrote:Again, rules are rules but then again, they could have considered those who work their asses off for their families in their home country.
I think In some circles that would be considered "racist".

Did yo you try an appeal (I can see from your posting history that you got the decision some time during the last month) or considered if he could get a job and RP that basis?


betelgeuse
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by betelgeuse » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:28 pm

terebee wrote:We applied for a permit based on family ties and got denied. For what reason? I have insufficient income. I understand that rules are rules but I really do think that 2200 euros netto is a tad bit too high for ordinary workers like me.
It's worth nothing that the income limits are not set by law. There would be a good chance of prevailing on appeal if you can prove that all of you can realistically survive with less.
terebee wrote:I could work for 10 years and still not be able to reach the income limit. It is infuriating, frustrating, and sad all the same time.
Savings count for the means of support. If you save 100 euros every month for 10 years, you can show 1000 euros extra in the Migri calculations. If you actually don't need to use it to support yourselves, it will be available whenever a permit extension is needed. If there's no money to save, then there's zero chance that the foreign family member wouldn't have to rely on social security after arrival to the country.


Zwagger
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by Zwagger » Mon Mar 14, 2016 1:01 pm

Rip wrote: I think In some circles that would be considered "racist".

Did yo you try an appeal (I can see from your posting history that you got the decision some time during the last month) or considered if he could get a job and RP that basis?
No not racist. From my little research through reading appeal cases on permit issues in Finland it can be extremely difficult to win. I have a feeling the court defends the migri decision anyway. But in her case, persistence until the higher echelons of administrative proceedings can bring positive result if she appeals.

When my brother was applying for a residence permit for studies, he was denied even though all documents were provided and would not miss verification tests. I was surprised by the reason 'studies does not lead to a degree'. I thought the people at migri would have called the school to ask if they gave someone of certain name an admission to study for a 'degree program'. I decided that we appeal because I knew the reason was false. The appeal was also denied. We defered the admission to the next year and re-applied with same school and degree and he got the permit.

Such decisions are merely as a reaction to the amount of immigrant coming to Finland.


betelgeuse
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Re: New family reunification law - secure income requirement

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:34 pm

Zwagger wrote: No not racist. From my little research through reading appeal cases on permit issues in Finland it can be extremely difficult to win. I have a feeling the court defends the migri decision anyway. But in her case, persistence until the higher echelons of administrative proceedings can bring positive result if she appeals.
People often say that the administrative courts are an extension of the executive branch rather than part of an independent branch. < disclaimers here about these generalized statements >


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