>> Family member of EU citizen doesn't need residence permit and thus not residence permit card. They get residence card. Did you apply for residence permit card or residence card?
I have a permanent residence. They used to put the permanent residence sticker in my passport. My latest renewal they have changed to the residence permit card. I have applied for and received this: http://www.migri.fi/residence_permits/p ... ermit_card. I have to show it at the airport in non eu countries along with my passport.
length/cost of permanent resident card
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
This is the letter I am working on to submit to the interior ministry should they decide to bring me to court. The interior ministry should first be allowed to correct the issue prior to the claim being filed with the European commission. I will file it anyway if they decide not to take me to court in an effort to make it not a criminal offence to forget to renew your passport for EEA citizens and their families.
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This letter should be forwarded to the Interior Ministry.
I am writing this letter in regards to certain penal clauses of the Finnish Aliens Act that are not legal under European law of equal treatment.
"Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that, within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions,
any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited. The Directive extends this right to family members, which means that EU citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host EU country enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that EU country within the scope of the Treaty."
The issue arises with the fine for not having valid travel documents within the host country.
A Finnish national is not fined for having expired travel documents within Finland where an EEA citizen and their family members are.
In addition, the fine is not reasonable amounting to maximum 12 day fines which is the equivalent to 4 days in prison should the EEA citizen/family member be unable to pay the fine.
The following are actions I would consider to be taken in good faith to redress this issue:
- Guidance issued to the Finnish police and Migri not to prosecute EEA citizens and their family members under the aliens act for expired travel documents.
- relief from my personal prosecution under penal clauses in section 185 of the aliens act for case ###### as this prosecution is not legal under EU law.
- Eventual amendment of the Finnish Aliens Act penal clause to omit EEA citizens and their family members in relation to expired travel documents.
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This letter should be forwarded to the Interior Ministry.
I am writing this letter in regards to certain penal clauses of the Finnish Aliens Act that are not legal under European law of equal treatment.
"Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that, within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions,
any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited. The Directive extends this right to family members, which means that EU citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host EU country enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that EU country within the scope of the Treaty."
The issue arises with the fine for not having valid travel documents within the host country.
A Finnish national is not fined for having expired travel documents within Finland where an EEA citizen and their family members are.
In addition, the fine is not reasonable amounting to maximum 12 day fines which is the equivalent to 4 days in prison should the EEA citizen/family member be unable to pay the fine.
The following are actions I would consider to be taken in good faith to redress this issue:
- Guidance issued to the Finnish police and Migri not to prosecute EEA citizens and their family members under the aliens act for expired travel documents.
- relief from my personal prosecution under penal clauses in section 185 of the aliens act for case ###### as this prosecution is not legal under EU law.
- Eventual amendment of the Finnish Aliens Act penal clause to omit EEA citizens and their family members in relation to expired travel documents.
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betelgeuse
- Posts: 4361
- Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
Section 182 seems to list all types of cards so the distinction does not seem relevant.Upphew wrote:Family member of EU citizen doesn't need residence permit and thus not residence permit card. They get residence card. Did you apply for residence permit card or residence card?mshamber wrote:I am starting to wonder if the Finnish aliens act can legally be applied to a family member of an EU citizen.
Interesting theory. In practice, Finnish courts don't a have a big tradition for going against letter of the law in favor of more abstract principles. The main constitutional control is in the parliament, not in the courts.mshamber wrote:I am starting to wonder if the Finnish aliens act can legally be applied to a family member of an EU citizen. Under EU law of equal treatment, since a Finnish citizen is not penalized for having an expired passport, it is not lawful to penalize any other EU citizen or their family members.
Handling of criminal code belongs to member states so one can argue that this is not about application of EU law. Granted local criminal code can't make hollow things like free movement.mshamber wrote: The most important of these rights is the right to equal treatment. Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that, within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited.
No-one in Finland is required to carry any cards.mshamber wrote: One other interesting finding for EEA citizens and aliens exercising free movement. In regards for penalties for failure to obtain/keep current a residence permit card. "EU countries can impose the same sanctions as those imposed on their own nationals for failure to carry their identity card. " Since Finland does not give a penalty for failing to carry ID the fine would have to be 0.
mshamber wrote: I don't believe Finland should criminalize expired passports or visas for permanent residents. Everything is in the Finnish computer system. You simply are not allowed to travel until you have the correct documents.
The Finnish computer does not know about changes abroad. Having to show foreign documents keeps the Finnish computer up to date. Granted for this argument to be equal, there should be something similar to Finnish dual citizens.
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betelgeuse
- Posts: 4361
- Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
This is not within the powers of the interior ministry. Due to separation of powers they should not meddle with existing prosecution.mshamber wrote: - relief from my personal prosecution under penal clauses in section 185 of the aliens act for case ###### as this prosecution is not legal under EU law.
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
Five years permit is really great, my friend got her first permit for 1 year ( so paid a hefty fee just for 1 year), second permit was like 2 years, 3rd permit was like 3 years! After that finally got Permanent residence permit after 4 years being here. SO 5 years is great if you pay the fee and get it for 5 years.
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
Here is the final text that I sent to migri which will forward it to the interior ministry. Thank you all for feedback.
This letter should be forwarded to the Interior Ministry.
Dear sir,
I am writing this letter in regards to two separate issues related to implementation of Finnish law and practices that do not comply with European Union treaties. This notice is meant to give Finnish authorities an opportunity to redress these issues prior to their submittal to the European Commission.
The first of these is that a particular penal clause of the Finnish Aliens Act is not legal under Article 18 of European law related to equal treatment.
Ulkomaalasilaki 185 which is the penal clause of the Aliens act from 30 April 2004 states the following:
1) tahallaan oleskelee maassa ilman vaadittavaa matkustusasiakirjaa, viisumia tai oleskelulupaa taikka laiminlyö velvollisuutensa rekisteröidä oleskelunsa taikka hakea oleskelulupakortti, oleskelukortti tai pysyvä oleskelukortti.
With an unofficial translation as:
1) intentionally staying in the country without the required travel documents, visa or residence permit, or fails to register their stay or apply for a residence card, residence card or permanent residence card.
Where that travel document is defined in Ulkomaalasilaki 13 as a valid passport.
The issue arises with the fine for not having valid travel documents within the host country.
A Finnish national is not guilty of a criminal offense for not having valid travel documents within Finland where an EEA citizen and their family members are.
Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that,
within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions,
any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited. The Directive extends this right to family members,
which means that EU citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host EU country enjoy equal treatment
with the nationals of that EU country within the scope of the Treaty.
The second issue is related to the implementation of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states. Article 25 states that documents shall be issued free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on nationals for the issuing of similar documents. Finland charges 78 Euro for a permanent residence card while only charging 50 for a national identity card to a Finnish person. Article 20 states that permanent residence cards for family members who are not nationals of a member state should have their cards granted for a period of 10 years where Finland is currently only issuing those for 5.
During the course of police investigation of Ulkomaalasilaki 185, it appears to be common practice to violate Finnish law and also the European Treaties through use of a standard letter sent to those suspected to have violated the clause. The investigation is mixed with the application process for resident permit card and threatens a negative result on the card application should the applicant not comply with information related to the investigation. Under Finnish law, migri cannot invoke article 22 to ask about a gap in passport status during an application for a permanent residence card as a gap in passport history is not a dis-qualifier for this application. Similarly, EEA citizens and their family members can not be threatened with a negative resident permit card application result for failure to provide information that is not relevant to their application.
This letter should be forwarded to the Interior Ministry.
Dear sir,
I am writing this letter in regards to two separate issues related to implementation of Finnish law and practices that do not comply with European Union treaties. This notice is meant to give Finnish authorities an opportunity to redress these issues prior to their submittal to the European Commission.
The first of these is that a particular penal clause of the Finnish Aliens Act is not legal under Article 18 of European law related to equal treatment.
Ulkomaalasilaki 185 which is the penal clause of the Aliens act from 30 April 2004 states the following:
1) tahallaan oleskelee maassa ilman vaadittavaa matkustusasiakirjaa, viisumia tai oleskelulupaa taikka laiminlyö velvollisuutensa rekisteröidä oleskelunsa taikka hakea oleskelulupakortti, oleskelukortti tai pysyvä oleskelukortti.
With an unofficial translation as:
1) intentionally staying in the country without the required travel documents, visa or residence permit, or fails to register their stay or apply for a residence card, residence card or permanent residence card.
Where that travel document is defined in Ulkomaalasilaki 13 as a valid passport.
The issue arises with the fine for not having valid travel documents within the host country.
A Finnish national is not guilty of a criminal offense for not having valid travel documents within Finland where an EEA citizen and their family members are.
Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that,
within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions,
any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited. The Directive extends this right to family members,
which means that EU citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host EU country enjoy equal treatment
with the nationals of that EU country within the scope of the Treaty.
The second issue is related to the implementation of Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the member states. Article 25 states that documents shall be issued free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on nationals for the issuing of similar documents. Finland charges 78 Euro for a permanent residence card while only charging 50 for a national identity card to a Finnish person. Article 20 states that permanent residence cards for family members who are not nationals of a member state should have their cards granted for a period of 10 years where Finland is currently only issuing those for 5.
During the course of police investigation of Ulkomaalasilaki 185, it appears to be common practice to violate Finnish law and also the European Treaties through use of a standard letter sent to those suspected to have violated the clause. The investigation is mixed with the application process for resident permit card and threatens a negative result on the card application should the applicant not comply with information related to the investigation. Under Finnish law, migri cannot invoke article 22 to ask about a gap in passport status during an application for a permanent residence card as a gap in passport history is not a dis-qualifier for this application. Similarly, EEA citizens and their family members can not be threatened with a negative resident permit card application result for failure to provide information that is not relevant to their application.
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
>> One other interesting finding for EEA citizens and aliens exercising free movement. In regards for penalties for failure to obtain/keep current a residence permit card. "EU countries can impose the same sanctions as those imposed on their own nationals for failure to carry their identity card. " Since Finland does not give a penalty for failing to carry ID the fine would have to be 0.
I was wrong about this. When I read the actual directive it only relates to the failure to carry id on your person. The Finns can give a fine for failure to obtain/keep current a residence permit card for EEA nationals. For example in Article 8 of the right to free movement it states "Failure to comply with the registration requirement may render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions."
If the fine for lack of residence permit card for a EEA national is similar to the fine for lack of valid passport which is 8-24 day fines I think their is a further issue of non-compliance with the treaty. (8-24 day fines is approximate amount of fine days since I have not been able to find documentation on the amount of days fines that can be charged. I was charged 8 but the police officer said they could have charged me 3x). The nature of the day fine is by design discriminatory against those with varying income. The ability to impose a fine greater then 1000 euro for someone with slightly above average income could be considered not proportionate to the offense. Then there are the extreme cases of wealthy individuals that could get fines of tens of thousands. I believe the fine would need to more resemble a parking ticket. ie. A fixed fine.
I was wrong about this. When I read the actual directive it only relates to the failure to carry id on your person. The Finns can give a fine for failure to obtain/keep current a residence permit card for EEA nationals. For example in Article 8 of the right to free movement it states "Failure to comply with the registration requirement may render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions."
If the fine for lack of residence permit card for a EEA national is similar to the fine for lack of valid passport which is 8-24 day fines I think their is a further issue of non-compliance with the treaty. (8-24 day fines is approximate amount of fine days since I have not been able to find documentation on the amount of days fines that can be charged. I was charged 8 but the police officer said they could have charged me 3x). The nature of the day fine is by design discriminatory against those with varying income. The ability to impose a fine greater then 1000 euro for someone with slightly above average income could be considered not proportionate to the offense. Then there are the extreme cases of wealthy individuals that could get fines of tens of thousands. I believe the fine would need to more resemble a parking ticket. ie. A fixed fine.
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
Why?mshamber wrote:The nature of the day fine is by design discriminatory against those with varying income.
Then again one could sit few days in jail and thus lose some income. That would be fair for businessman and pauper, both would get hit equally.mshamber wrote:The ability to impose a fine greater then 1000 euro for someone with slightly above average income could be considered not proportionate to the offense. Then there are the extreme cases of wealthy individuals that could get fines of tens of thousands. I believe the fine would need to more resemble a parking ticket. ie. A fixed fine.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.
Re: length/cost of permanent resident card
>> The nature of the day fine is by design discriminatory against those with varying income.
>> Why?
discriminatory - characterized by or showing prejudicial treatment, especially as an indication of bias related to age, color, national origin, religion, sex, income (income added by me)
It shows prejudice to those with higher income by giving them a bigger fine.
>> Then again one could sit few days in jail and thus lose some income. That would be fair for businessman and pauper, both would get hit equally.
That would be a possible but unlikely outcome of challenging the legality of day fines for violations of the Aliens act by EEA citizens. The Finnish state legal system has a preference for fines over prison.
>> Why?
discriminatory - characterized by or showing prejudicial treatment, especially as an indication of bias related to age, color, national origin, religion, sex, income (income added by me)
It shows prejudice to those with higher income by giving them a bigger fine.
>> Then again one could sit few days in jail and thus lose some income. That would be fair for businessman and pauper, both would get hit equally.
That would be a possible but unlikely outcome of challenging the legality of day fines for violations of the Aliens act by EEA citizens. The Finnish state legal system has a preference for fines over prison.