kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

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grani2014
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:41 am

kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by grani2014 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:08 pm

I have lived a long time in Finland and work as a translator, and am almost certain that the correct way to say "translate into Finnish" in Finnish is "kääntää suomeen" but the google gives far more examples of "kääntää suomeksi" even though I am sure this is the wrong but popularly used form.

Does any Finn have an opinion on this?

Thank you



kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

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AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by AldenG » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:23 pm

Not a Finn, but the answer seems quite clear in modern usage:

Kääntää suomen kieleen (less often and less correctly kielelle)
Kääntää suomeksi

Kääntää englannin kieleen (-lle)
Kääntää englanniksi

The "kieleen" form is more formal and not a usual first choice in conversation, email, most business writing, etc but won't raise eyebrows as long as you don't do it all the time. However, kääntää suomeen does sound distinctly off when talking about translation, IMO.

Usage in older Finnish expatriate communities (eg areas of Florida, Massachusetts, Michigan, Washington State, and some areas in Canada) sometimes reflects antiquated or divergently evolved norms in this or other matters.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


grani2014
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:41 am

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by grani2014 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:58 pm

Hi Alden,

I asked a Finnish translator for her opinion, and she confirms that "kääntää suomesta englantiin/englannin kieleen" is the correct form.


007
Posts: 620
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:01 pm

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by 007 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:18 pm

grani2014 wrote:Hi Alden,

I asked a Finnish translator for her opinion, and she confirms that "kääntää suomesta englantiin/englannin kieleen" is the correct form.
But kääntää suomeksi is also correct. I think in order to be able to use kääntää englantiin/englannin kieleen, one must use extra word with '-sta' e.g suomesta englantiin. In my opinion, 'kääntää suomeen' does not stand alone unlike kääntää suomeksi.

Disclaimer: not a Finn
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
"Aina, kun opit uuden sanan, opettele samalla sen monikko!"


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by AldenG » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:35 pm

That then leads to the question of why sources like Opetushallitus, Suomen Kuvalehti, and Kielitoimisto, to name a few, seem pretty consistent nowadays in using translative -ksi instead of illative -xxn in their presumably considered and well-informed writing and editing.

KOTUS does state that illative is permissible, but then apart from the single example illustrating that usage, in practice for some reason they seem to use mostly translative.

I just now phoned and asked my former-teacher wife and she felt that suomeen, englantiin, ruotsiin etc was not incorrect per se but suggested someone who was less careful or less educated. I forgot to ask if it might be an older usage but I can do that this evening.

My own reaction was based purely on prevalence and who I see doing it one way versus another. Reading or listening to mostly news, pop fiction, and literature, I rarely come across kääntää suomeen, englantiin, etc. On reflection it's easy for me to empathize with an "analytical" mindset that might want kirjoittaa englanniksi but kääntää englantiin (though my better half insists that then it should correctly be englannin kieleen). I just haven't observed people actually using kääntää -iin much. Where it would least tweak my ear would be somewhere like an invoice for translation services, where the context is clearly predefined (it's languages and translation) and then you say something like käännös suomesta englantiin, with a neat -sta -iin pair.

Would be interesting to hear what Jukka's ear says.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by AldenG » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:38 pm

007 wrote:
grani2014 wrote:Hi Alden,

I asked a Finnish translator for her opinion, and she confirms that "kääntää suomesta englantiin/englannin kieleen" is the correct form.
But kääntää suomeksi is also correct. I think in order to be able to use kääntää englantiin/englannin kieleen, one must use extra word with '-sta' e.g suomesta englantiin. In my opinion, 'kääntää suomeen' does not stand alone unlike kääntää suomeksi.

Disclaimer: not a Finn
I did not see this before posting just above, so it's interesting that you hit on one of the same points about what we want to hear illative next to.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


AldenG
Posts: 3333
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by AldenG » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:03 pm

grani2014 wrote:I have lived a long time in Finland and work as a translator, and am almost certain that the correct way to say "translate into Finnish" in Finnish is "kääntää suomeen" but the google gives far more examples of "kääntää suomeksi" even though I am sure this is the wrong but popularly used form.

Does any Finn have an opinion on this?

Thank you
grani2014 wrote:Hi Alden,

I asked a Finnish translator for her opinion, and she confirms that "kääntää suomesta englantiin/englannin kieleen" is the correct form.
You reframed the question a bit there. :D

As I noted a moment ago, I don't really have a problem with suomesta englantiin.

It's the standalone "käänsi teoksen suomeen" instead of "käänsi teoksen suomeksi" that feels eccentric. The more I think about current usage the less I like it, as it blurs together two distinct senses of englanniksi/suomeksi: manner (jutella englanniksi) and transformation (kääntää englanniksi). But I still say it's pretty clear what even careful, informed writers do with kääntää nowadays, minus the exceptions mentioned.

It's also worth noting in this overall context that "monelle kielelle" appears to be the prevalent and preferred form when talking about translation into many languages.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


Jukka Aho
Posts: 5238
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: kääntää suomeen vai suomeksi

Post by Jukka Aho » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:12 pm

AldenG wrote:Would be interesting to hear what Jukka's ear says.
-ksi
znark


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