domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

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maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:08 pm

Hi to all, we are coming back to Finland next March 2017 after an expat experience in Singapore.

During our stay there we hired a domestic helper who soon became very much a family member, our kids love her. Now we are trying to check how to bring her with us to Finland. She does not qualify as an au pair, since she is non-EU and older than 30 years old. In principle she would live with us hired as nanny / housekeeping.

It goes without saying that we will need a regular contract with pension, healthcare and all other social contribution. However, she will also have food and lodging from us. So any idea of what type of contract would be needed? Is there a minimum wage in Finland?



domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

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Upphew
Posts: 9912
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Location: Lappeenranta

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by Upphew » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:44 am

maurello wrote:Hi to all, we are coming back to Finland next March 2017 after an expat experience in Singapore.

During our stay there we hired a domestic helper who soon became very much a family member, our kids love her. Now we are trying to check how to bring her with us to Finland. She does not qualify as an au pair, since she is non-EU and older than 30 years old. In principle she would live with us hired as nanny / housekeeping.

It goes without saying that we will need a regular contract with pension, healthcare and all other social contribution. However, she will also have food and lodging from us. So any idea of what type of contract would be needed? Is there a minimum wage in Finland?
There is no minimum wage. You'll need a work contract. If the wage is too low then she won't get residence permit based on work.
You should check: migri.fi vero.fi (the au pair stuff will be relevant even though your domestic helper won't be and qualify as one) palkka.fi (the Swedish (på svenska you know?) will be easier for automatic translation). And this one too might be of use: http://tyosuojelujulkaisut.wshop.fi/doc ... _netti.pdf
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:52 pm

Thanks for your reply. This can be then tricky.

A typical helper / nanny arrangement would include also food and lodging. Basically the person lives with the family full time and in the long run it becomes almost a member of the family. How to factor it in the wage and what would be considered too low? It would be great if there were some sort of tables for reference


betelgeuse
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Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:01 pm

maurello wrote:A typical helper / nanny arrangement would include also food and lodging. Basically the person lives with the family full time and in the long run it becomes almost a member of the family. How to factor it in the wage and what would be considered too low? It would be great if there were some sort of tables for reference
Food and lodging are taxable fringe benefits and as such counted towards the income requirements.


maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:11 pm

Excellent, this is good news about fringe benefits! Thanks!

Now next step is to understand how much the minimum wage is. According to my research this type of work belongs to the YKSITYISEN SOSIAALIPALVELUALAN TYÖEHTOSOPIMUS, social services collective agreement, at this link: http://www.finlex.fi/data/tes/PT41Yksosala1403.pdf. My understanding of this paper is that the minimum salary is about 1600 EUR per month. Is this a correct interpretation?

If the gross salary would then be 1600 EUR, is it the full amount we would need to spend per month as employer or are there other hidden costs for employers (eg other tax)


Upphew
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Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by Upphew » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:38 pm

maurello wrote:Excellent, this is good news about fringe benefits! Thanks!

Now next step is to understand how much the minimum wage is. According to my research this type of work belongs to the YKSITYISEN SOSIAALIPALVELUALAN TYÖEHTOSOPIMUS, social services collective agreement, at this link: http://www.finlex.fi/data/tes/PT41Yksosala1403.pdf. My understanding of this paper is that the minimum salary is about 1600 EUR per month. Is this a correct interpretation?

If the gross salary would then be 1600 EUR, is it the full amount we would need to spend per month as employer or are there other hidden costs for employers (eg other tax)
Few insurances. Pension, health and unemployment comes to my mind. Adds up to about 25%?
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Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


betelgeuse
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Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:11 pm

maurello wrote: Now next step is to understand how much the minimum wage is. According to my research this type of work belongs to the YKSITYISEN SOSIAALIPALVELUALAN TYÖEHTOSOPIMUS, social services collective agreement, at this link: http://www.finlex.fi/data/tes/PT41Yksosala1403.pdf. My understanding of this paper is that the minimum salary is about 1600 EUR per month. Is this a correct interpretation?
G17 seems more appropriate since I assume she would need to do things independently and the list of work descriptions includes a nanny. If she has a long work history, that can push the minimum salary over 2k / month.


maurello
Posts: 29
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Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:11 pm

Upphew wrote:Few insurances. Pension, health and unemployment comes to my mind. Adds up to about 25%?
Clear, are these extra tax deductible for the employers (us)? From Vero website it seems that 20% of the gross income paid to the domestic helper would be deductible, plus also 100% of these additional costs to add up (the 25% you mentioned).

I found a great website, palkka.fi. From there it says that for a salary of 1600 EUR, employers would pay additionally 333 EUR per month. If 333 per month are 100% tax deductible from mine own personal tax income, then it starts to be doable.


maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:12 pm

betelgeuse wrote:G17 seems more appropriate since I assume she would need to do things independently and the list of work descriptions includes a nanny. If she has a long work history, that can push the minimum salary over 2k / month.
This is a good point. Is there a description of these G... grades? it was very foggy to us.


betelgeuse
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Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:16 pm

maurello wrote:
Upphew wrote:Few insurances. Pension, health and unemployment comes to my mind. Adds up to about 25%?
Clear, are these extra tax deductible for the employers (us)? From Vero website it seems that 20% of the gross income paid to the domestic helper would be deductible, plus also 100% of these additional costs to add up (the 25% you mentioned).
Yes. However, there's a cap of 4800 euros for a couple.

https://www.vero.fi/en-US/Individuals/D ... aim(35230)
https://www.vero.fi/fi-FI/Henkiloasiakk ... usvahennys
maurello wrote:
betelgeuse wrote:G17 seems more appropriate since I assume she would need to do things independently and the list of work descriptions includes a nanny. If she has a long work history, that can push the minimum salary over 2k / month.
This is a good point. Is there a description of these G... grades? it was very foggy to us.
Page 33 of the pdf numbering.


maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:04 pm

betelgeuse wrote:[Yes. However, there's a cap of 4800 euros for a couple.
Is this 4800 EUR a cap against only the työnantajan maksut or against the full gross salary? For a salary of 1600 EUR per mont the työnantajan maksut are about 333 EUR. If this cap is against only this amount, then basically a couple could deduct it 100% in one year.

One more question. Regarding the food and lodging benefits, I found out there are some regulations: https://www.veronmaksajat.fi/Palkka-ja- ... oetu-2016/
Is this something fixed that must be used or an indication for tax purposes? We estimated food and lodging to be about 700 EUR, but here it seems we should calculate it in details.

Thanks a lot! We have spent incredible amount of hours from Singapore talking to Vero, Immigration Office, Palkka, TE-palvelut, etc... but the info given here is much more accurate :)


priki
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Location: Tampere

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by priki » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:35 pm

^That is the tax decision for year 2016. Housing, food, light and heating is considered worth of 490€/month in a single room, and 470€/month in a shared room. I suppose she will get her own room, so the value of the housing etc benefit was 490€/month for year 2016. These taxation decisions are made separately for each year.
Here are the 2017 figures. https://www.veronmaksajat.fi/Palkka-ja- ... oetu-2017/
498€/month and 478€/month accordingly.
So that is the amount that is considered as her salary in addition to the actual salary, and she has to pay tax for that.

4800€ is the maximum amount a couple can deduct in one year. If the monthly deduction is 333€, 12*333€=3996€, which is under the limit. It is actually a very generous deduction, because it is done from the tax you pay and not from the salary you earn before calculating the taxes, unlike most of the other tax deductions.
For 2017 a household as an employer can deduct 20% of the salary and all the employer side expenses (such as pension payments).
Note also that these deductions vary yearly, depending on what the government wants. Now they have increased the deduction for year 2017, earlier it was reduced.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood something.
If you consider that suitable monthly salary for her would be 1998€, then you have to pay her 1500€/month (minus her taxes which you have to pay to the taxman). In addition you have to pay the pension payments etc from the whole sum.
You also need to find out how long hours she is allowed to do, how to organize her annual paid vacations (usually four weeks summer vacation and one week winter vacation), insurance, health care etc. Please also note that you may need to pay her holiday bonuses, it depends on the field, but usually it is about half a month salary.

I did a quick calculation in palkkaus.fi, with 1998€ salary for 12 months, employer costs would be about 5000€/year, so only slightly over the deduction limit. This is in the 'other child care' field. In addition, you could deduct 20% of the salary, but the deduction limit is already full, so that you can forget.


maurello
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by maurello » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:06 pm

priki wrote: Please correct me if I've misunderstood something.
If you consider that suitable monthly salary for her would be 1998€, then you have to pay her 1500€/month (minus her taxes which you have to pay to the taxman). In addition you have to pay the pension payments etc from the whole sum.
You also need to find out how long hours she is allowed to do, how to organize her annual paid vacations (usually four weeks summer vacation and one week winter vacation), insurance, health care etc. Please also note that you may need to pay her holiday bonuses, it depends on the field, but usually it is about half a month salary.

I did a quick calculation in palkkaus.fi, with 1998€ salary for 12 months, employer costs would be about 5000€/year, so only slightly over the deduction limit. This is in the 'other child care' field. In addition, you could deduct 20% of the salary, but the deduction limit is already full, so that you can forget.
That is correct. We intend to use the system called joint pool of household employers to share some costs. We also used Palkka, the amount is pretty much what you also found out. Hours should be kept to secure there is no overtime. Contract can be done by performance. Holidays are of course paid, holiday bonus (0.5) is agreeable, hence it can be written in the employment contract that it won't be considered.
It was a long research, but lots of information online and very good suggestions here. We are about to conclude the case and submit the residence permit application!

Thanks a lot to all of you!


Upphew
Posts: 9912
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: domestic helper / nanny from Singapore

Post by Upphew » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:33 pm

maurello wrote:
priki wrote: Please correct me if I've misunderstood something.
If you consider that suitable monthly salary for her would be 1998€, then you have to pay her 1500€/month (minus her taxes which you have to pay to the taxman). In addition you have to pay the pension payments etc from the whole sum.
You also need to find out how long hours she is allowed to do, how to organize her annual paid vacations (usually four weeks summer vacation and one week winter vacation), insurance, health care etc. Please also note that you may need to pay her holiday bonuses, it depends on the field, but usually it is about half a month salary.

I did a quick calculation in palkkaus.fi, with 1998€ salary for 12 months, employer costs would be about 5000€/year, so only slightly over the deduction limit. This is in the 'other child care' field. In addition, you could deduct 20% of the salary, but the deduction limit is already full, so that you can forget.
That is correct. We intend to use the system called joint pool of household employers to share some costs. We also used Palkka, the amount is pretty much what you also found out. Hours should be kept to secure there is no overtime. Contract can be done by performance. Holidays are of course paid, holiday bonus (0.5) is agreeable, hence it can be written in the employment contract that it won't be considered.
It was a long research, but lots of information online and very good suggestions here. We are about to conclude the case and submit the residence permit application!

Thanks a lot to all of you!
She submits the application, you do the work contract that is needed for the application.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


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