Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

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Rosamunda
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Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:47 pm

At the Brexit "Town Hall Meeting" (in the crypt of the cathedral in Helsinki) a couple of months ago, the ambassador kept saying that if we (Brits) have been resident in Finland for more than five years, we can make an application for permanent residency.

When I looked on Migri, I only found this http://www.migri.fi/download/41720_OLE_ ... 7955b2d488
which seems to apply to immigrants who are living here on an "A Permit". I don't have a permit as such since I am an EU national.

So what did the ambassador mean? Can a citizen of an EU member state who has lived in Finland continuously for more than five years apply for some kind of badge/card/sticker/status that confers permanent residency? If so, which is the relevant form to fill in?

Has anyone done it?

(My Plan B is Finnish citizenship but that is work-in-progress...)



Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

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Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:55 pm

I was going to delete the post...

But just in case someone else is interested, I found it here: https://enterfinland.fi/eServices/info/europeancitizens


Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:26 pm

QUESTIONS...

Period of residence ends

Where can I find this information? Do EU nationals have a date that defines the end of their residence? Can I leave it blank? It keeps telling me that the information is missing.


"Copy of travel document for dependent parents and children over 21 years of age"

So, in the absence of an Oxford comma, can I assume that this request does not concern me since my children and my parents are all aged over 21 and are no longer dependent? What is the definition of a dependent child over 21? If they are a student living at home, does that constitute "dependent"?

There is no :?: button in the forms giving help or definitions. :evil:


betelgeuse
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:33 pm

Rosamunda wrote: Where can I find this information? Do EU nationals have a date that defines the end of their residence? Can I leave it blank? It keeps telling me that the information is missing.
I would just put 01/01/2300. It seems like a bug with the form that you can't select permanent.
Rosamunda wrote: So, in the absence of an Oxford comma, can I assume that this request does not concern me since my children and my parents are all aged over 21 and are no longer dependent? What is the definition of a dependent child over 21? If they are a student living at home, does that constitute "dependent"?

There is no :?: button in the forms giving help or definitions. :evil:
Can you swap the language to Finnish and paste the Finnish text.


bm50
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by bm50 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:59 pm

Hi,

I am British and have lived in Finland for over 20years and in 2005 was issued with a Permanent Residence Permit Card so where do I stand?


Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:13 pm

I wondered that too. I've been here since 2001. But I don't think the "card" is automatic.
Is there a place where you can find out if you already have / still have permanent residency or not? (without queuing)


betelgeuse
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:11 pm

Rosamunda wrote:I wondered that too. I've been here since 2001. But I don't think the "card" is automatic.
Is there a place where you can find out if you already have / still have permanent residency or not? (without queuing)
Due to EU law the permanent residence comes out of the sheer fact that you fill the conditions without separate approval. The card is the proof you are looking for but it's not necessary for the right itself to exist.


Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:44 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Rosamunda wrote:I wondered that too. I've been here since 2001. But I don't think the "card" is automatic.
Is there a place where you can find out if you already have / still have permanent residency or not? (without queuing)
Due to EU law the permanent residence comes out of the sheer fact that you fill the conditions without separate approval. The card is the proof you are looking for but it's not necessary for the right itself to exist.
That's pretty much what it says on the site so I guess the embassy which kept talking about "applying" for permanent residency was confusing everyone. But can permanent residency (EU citizens) be revoked? Eg if I spend more than 6 months out of the country in any year? Or is it an acquired right for life that is now mine since I have fulfilled the criteria?

(I'll post the Finnish version of that question about dependant parents and children later)
Thx


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sinikala
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by sinikala » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:40 pm

Rosamunda wrote:At the Brexit "Town Hall Meeting" (in the crypt of the cathedral in Helsinki) a couple of months ago, the ambassador kept saying that if we (Brits) have been resident in Finland for more than five years, we can make an application for permanent residency.

When I looked on Migri, I only found this http://www.migri.fi/download/41720_OLE_ ... 7955b2d488
which seems to apply to immigrants who are living here on an "A Permit". I don't have a permit as such since I am an EU national.

So what did the ambassador mean? Can a citizen of an EU member state who has lived in Finland continuously for more than five years apply for some kind of badge/card/sticker/status that confers permanent residency? If so, which is the relevant form to fill in?

Has anyone done it?

(My Plan B is Finnish citizenship but that is work-in-progress...)
I assume Her Excellency was talking about the Oleskelulupa card which I have

http://www.migri.fi/oleskeluluvat

That .pdf you linked to looks to be the right one.

Mine was issued in March 2005, and next to the expiry date it has Pysyvä Permanent.

I applied for it to have a form of photo ID and unlike getting a Finnish driving licence it didn't involve parting with any UK documents (I didn't want to be without a license incase I needed to drive abroad).
I later switched to a Finnish driver's licence too. There were discussions in a thread at the time (from 2006) about forms of ID in Finland in which you yourself posted

viewtopic.php?t=16919&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=13

Was so long ago I vaguely remember that I applied at the Police station, and they tried to tell me I didn't need it as "sä oot EU:n kansalinen".
I'd been here working full time for 6 or 7 years, even though as an EU citizen I had no work permit, I filled in the form and picked up the card when it was ready.

I can't remember what I filled in, but looking at the form in its current version, in section "3.1 Grounds for residence" I would have ticked "other grounds, specify" and fill in "EU:n kansalinen, työskentelin Suomessa vuodesta 1999"
And 3.2B, I'd tick both boxes and let them sort it out.
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sinikala
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by sinikala » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:54 pm

bm50 wrote:Hi,

I am British and have lived in Finland for over 20years and in 2005 was issued with a Permanent Residence Permit Card so where do I stand?
Same year as I received my Oleskelulupa card.

My understanding is that we have the equivalent in Finland of what the UK is offering the EU http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40379663 "The main feature is the offer of "settled status" for EU citizens, as well of nationals of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, who have been living legally and continuously in the UK for at least five years."

As the EU says this is insufficient, my guess is that whatever rights we end up with it will be at minimum what the UK has offered. And that you & I have nothing to worry about.
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sinikala
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by sinikala » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:01 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Rosamunda wrote:I wondered that too. I've been here since 2001. But I don't think the "card" is automatic.
Is there a place where you can find out if you already have / still have permanent residency or not? (without queuing)
Due to EU law the permanent residence comes out of the sheer fact that you fill the conditions without separate approval. The card is the proof you are looking for but it's not necessary for the right itself to exist.
Agree, but I feel a bit more secure having submitted the forms, had my paperwork porcessed and received the card as proof vs. knowing I have that right and that it's just a formality to get the card.

But who knows what the UK and EU will agree on - perhaps nothing, which may leave several million throughout the EU in limbo.
In Finland I suspect that from April 2019 - it will become compulsory for UK citizens to apply for the OL card, not sufficient to know they have the right to it.
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Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:31 pm

I also have an Oleskelulupa (Residence Permit) card issued on 10.9.2001 but it expired on 9.9.2006. I still carry it around with me as I never received any replacement (and don't remember filling in any forms). It does have a photo and a Client No. It doesn't say anything about "permanent" residency on the card; on the back it says that the holder has the right to take up and pursue an activity as an employed person etc etc. Anyway, that card was issued before I had acquired full rights (ie less than four years in the country).
As the EU says this is insufficient, my guess is that whatever rights we end up with it will be at minimum what the UK has offered. And that you & I have nothing to worry about.
As my retirement plans involve spending probably half the year in an EU country (not Finland or the UK) and my pension is - for the most part - coming from an EU country that is not Finland/UK, I don't agree that I have nothing to worry about. If "acquired rights" means I cannot set foot outside of Finland for more than one month at a time or more than six months in the year in total, that is not enough for me. I cannot see the UK being generous enough to allow its EU residents to potter around Europe at will...


betelgeuse
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by betelgeuse » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 pm

Rosamunda wrote:As my retirement plans involve spending probably half the year in an EU country (not Finland or the UK) and my pension is - for the most part - coming from an EU country that is not Finland/UK, I don't agree that I have nothing to worry about. If "acquired rights" means I cannot set foot outside of Finland for more than one month at a time or more than six months in the year in total, that is not enough for me. I cannot see the UK being generous enough to allow its EU residents to potter around Europe at will...
Do you mean you require more than tourist status? If the country is Schengen, you will be able to use the 90 days in 180 days rule.
Rosamunda wrote: But can permanent residency (EU citizens) be revoked? Eg if I spend more than 6 months out of the country in any year?
It can be revoked. See Section 165 of the Aliens Act for the specifics.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 040301.pdf


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sinikala
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by sinikala » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:04 am

Rosamunda wrote:I also have an Oleskelulupa (Residence Permit) card issued on 10.9.2001 but it expired on 9.9.2006. I still carry it around with me as I never received any replacement (and don't remember filling in any forms). It does have a photo and a Client No. It doesn't say anything about "permanent" residency on the card; on the back it says that the holder has the right to take up and pursue an activity as an employed person etc etc. Anyway, that card was issued before I had acquired full rights (ie less than four years in the country).
I suggest you contact Migri with a copy of your expired card and ask is it now possible to get a permanent residence card on the basis of that expired original.
As I recall the cost of the Oleskelulupa was €40, so it is not reasonable to expect them to have issued you a replacement card any more than you would expect to get a new passport for free.
The onus was on you to keep it up to date and request a replacement.
Rosamunda wrote:
As the EU says this is insufficient, my guess is that whatever rights we end up with it will be at minimum what the UK has offered. And that you & I have nothing to worry about.
As my retirement plans involve spending probably half the year in an EU country (not Finland or the UK) and my pension is - for the most part - coming from an EU country that is not Finland/UK, I don't agree that I have nothing to worry about. If "acquired rights" means I cannot set foot outside of Finland for more than one month at a time or more than six months in the year in total, that is not enough for me. I cannot see the UK being generous enough to allow its EU residents to potter around Europe at will...
You have selectively quoted me, the part you have quoted was my direct response to bm50 (who has a valid permanent residence card), not to you.
sinikala wrote:
bm50 wrote:Hi,

I am British and have lived in Finland for over 20 years and in 2005 was issued with a Permanent Residence Permit Card so where do I stand?
Same year as I received my Oleskelulupa card.

My understanding is that we have the equivalent in Finland of what the UK is offering the EU http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40379663 "The main feature is the offer of "settled status" for EU citizens, as well of nationals of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland, who have been living legally and continuously in the UK for at least five years."

As the EU says this is insufficient, my guess is that whatever rights we end up with it will be at minimum what the UK has offered. And that you & I have nothing to worry about.
I'm not sure why you mention your pension from a 3rd EU country (not Finland or the UK), how is that relevant?
It will surely be calculated in the same way irrespective of your nationality, location or country of residence after you retire.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/wo ... dex_en.htm

Your residence should be registered in the place where you spend most of your time, certainly for any period over 3 months

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

AFAIK you can't be a permanent resident in more than 1 country; if not explicitly forbidden, seems it's hard to do. http://bfy.tw/CqeB
If you spend over half of a tax year resident in a place other than Finland, then presumably that country is where you should be seeking a residence card, not Finland.
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Rosamunda
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Re: Permanent Residency in Finland for British citizens

Post by Rosamunda » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:13 pm

sinikala wrote:
I'm not sure why you mention your pension from a 3rd EU country (not Finland or the UK), how is that relevant?
It will surely be calculated in the same way irrespective of your nationality, location or country of residence after you retire.
No one knows as yet whether Brits will still be able to claim their pensions through the European Aggregate Pension scheme. "Surely" is not a word I would tend to use when talking about anything related to Brexit.
Your residence should be registered in the place where you spend most of your time, certainly for any period over 3 months
Three months is way shorter than a Finnish winter...!
AFAIK you can't be a permanent resident in more than 1 country; if not explicitly forbidden, seems it's hard to do. http://bfy.tw/CqeB
If you spend over half of a tax year resident in a place other than Finland, then presumably that country is where you should be seeking a residence card, not Finland.
True. But it seems Brits currently living in Finland (or Spain etc) may/might/could lose the possibility of moving to another EU country for permanent residence. This would be an issue for me. Obtaining citizenship of an EU country (not UK) is probably the only safeguard against being "doomed" to reside in Finland to infinity and beyond. Example: when I retire (in 5-10 years) I might want to move to another EU country for a couple of years and then come back to Finland or wherever...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ?CMP=fb_gu


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