Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

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BlueDragon
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:23 am

Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by BlueDragon » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:33 am

I've checked and the us government does allow you to renounce citizenship even if it would render you stateless, so I'm not trying to figure that out anymore. What I have been researching is; would the finnish government try deporting someone who did this back to the us, despite the us no longer allowing you to stay there anymore and being stateless instead of giving you a residence permit for a stateless person.
Last edited by BlueDragon on Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

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Vera
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by Vera » Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:10 am

US State Department specifically warns people that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting the ex-citizen to the US. I wouldn't try this if I were you.

Besides, the renunciation fee is $2350, and you are in a difficult financial situation already.

If you really find a job here you might (depending on the job) get a residence permit.


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rinso
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by rinso » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:56 pm

BlueDragon wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:33 am
Hello! this is my first post here as this is a hard question to find an answer to, probably due to how few people would consider becoming stateless for the sake of residency.

I've checked and the us government does allow you to renounce citizenship even if it would render you stateless, so I'm not trying to figure that out anymore. What I have been researching is; would the finnish government try deporting someone who did this back to the us, despite the us no longer allowing you to stay there anymore and being stateless instead of giving you a residence permit for a stateless person.

It's hard to get a real answer anywhere, but I'd love to know what users here think and how likely it would be for this to work out?

My reasons for considering this are complex, but to simplify: I have friends in finland who are willing to host me there until I can get a job, I don't have the qualifications to get a residence permit on any grounds, and I don't have the funds to immigrate for study reasons. Back home, here in the us, I'm about to have nowhere to stay, and I don't qualify for any aid. And unlike in finland, I don't have friends who could host me.

Important info: I have been researching the topic of immigration for 2 years now, and so far have not found any good ways to move there in my situation. I also understand the harsh consequences of not being a us citizen anymore, but if there would be no or little risk of it not gaining me residency in finland, I'd be willing to take that risk. this also assumes that I'd already be in finland when i gave away my citizenship, so I'd already have used my us passport to get there.
It is almost certain you will not get a Finnish citizenship or residence permit through this route.
Deliberate actions to circumvent the system and get a residence permit (or citizenship) for which you do not qualify are the very basis to reject any application. (and probably send you back to the US)


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wolf80
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by wolf80 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:57 pm

If it was that easy there would be thousands and thousands of people every year trying this way to get into Finland. But it won't work. You will be sent back to the US and then be stateless in your own country. Even if you are stateless in Finland you have no right to a residence permit unless you fulfill the requirements of the specific type of residence permit. The 1954 and 1961 conventions on statelessness are not thought for people who give up their citizenship themselves. European countries will be VERY careful not to create precedent cases as it would open the gates to a whole new hell of immigrants. Any person could access Finland on a tourist visa, go to his embassy to renounce this citizenship, and live happily ever after in Finland - this is not gonna happen! Finland will determine you are a former US citizen and send you back to the US. And the US won't say no as you are simply not important enough to risk a diplomatic problem.

And why do you think people here would help you cheat your way into Finland? As you say yourself, you have no qualifications, nothing to offer to the country. I assume you don't even speak Finnish. You would be unable to find work for many years. Your friends in Finland, do you think they are gonna let you stay on their couch for years? Even if you got residency, which is not gonna happen, you would take money out of a social system without ever having paid into it! Do you yourself think that's fair?

The world is full of people who don't wanna live in their own countries anymore, full of tragic sob stories. They can't all come to live in Finland. You are safe in your country, your life is not in danger, and you will be able to find work and live a normal life. People like you take resources away from people who actually need help. People whose lives are threatened in their home countries and who have no place left to live. People actually worthy of help.


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wolf80
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by wolf80 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:08 pm

BlueDragon wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:33 am
I've checked and the us government does allow you to renounce citizenship even if it would render you stateless, so I'm not trying to figure that out anymore. What I have been researching is; would the finnish government try deporting someone who did this back to the us, despite the us no longer allowing you to stay there anymore and being stateless instead of giving you a residence permit for a stateless person.
First of all - radically changing your original posting instead of participating in the dialogue is incredibly impolite to any person who answered you here!!!

And yes, of course, Finland will try to deport you. What else should they do with you? The US was your last country of residence, and you got your visa to Finland on the condition that you will leave the country and return to your country of residence. The US will probably take you back, though now you are stateless in your own country. As far as I understand it you also have lost your US citizenship for life and cannot get it back. Congratulations!

Finland is a country where everybody deeply believes in the system and following rules. You are trying to cheat the system. That is heavily frowned upon, and Finnish administration will do everything possible to prevent you cheating the system. As I said, if they start allowing this procedure, a whole new flood of people will use that door into Finland, and they won't make that a possibility. You are trying to be smart, but you are not.

Why are you even considering this? You will only have a miserable life for many years to come. No job, no money, no rights, no home. You are trying to do this the lazy way. Use the same time to build yourself a life and career. Get an education, learn some skills. Then you might make it to Finland on a residence permit for work or study one day.
Last edited by wolf80 on Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.


inkku
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by inkku » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:14 pm

If you are stateless, you will need a visa to come to finland:
"Refusal, annulment and revocation of a visa

To be entitled to a visa, you must live or reside legally in the country where you submit the application. If the conditions in your case are not fulfilled, the visa is refused. You will be notified about the refusal in writing.

A visa may be refused on certain grounds mentioned in the Schengen states' common Visa Code. Examples include:

you do not have an approved, valid travel document
you do not provide justification to prove the purpose and conditions of your stay
you do not have sufficient means of subsistence for the duration of the stay
you are not entitled to return to the country of origin or to continue to a third country
the mission has well-grounded reasons to doubt that you do not intend to exit the Schengen area before the expiry of the visa that you are applying for
you may have an entry ban to Finland or to some other Schengen state or be considered to be a danger to a member state's public order, internal security or international relations.

The visa that has already been granted to you will be annulled if the conditions for issuing it were not met at the time when it was issued.

The visa that has already been granted to you will be revoked, if the conditions for issuing it are no longer met....."


heretostay
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by heretostay » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:19 pm

The embassy in theory can allow you to renounce but in practice I doubt it will be possible. If it happens, you will likely fall into the category of US non-citizen national, like the people in American Samoa. You will still be a US resident and able to be deported. Once back in the US, you will lose a lot of your rights that you once had as a citizen (including the right to vote). Not a good place to be in since renouncing citizenship is 100% permanent and irreversible.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... ality.html

Long article but it talks about the disadvantages of falling into this category: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/o ... oogle.com/


Rasikko
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Re: Renouncing us citizenship to stay in finland

Post by Rasikko » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:00 pm

Don't do this. Not only is it expensive, and gets more expensive the more people do it(#1 reason americans do it is because IRS still holds us captive on all our earnings no matter where we are), but things will be difficult for you should you decide to go back to the US, or get deported, as already pointed out. Speaking as a fellow american, I advise against this.


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