Residence permit renewal....This again!!

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
User avatar
sinikala
Posts: 4993
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:10 pm
Location: Pori, Finland

Re: Residence permit renewal....This again!!

Post by sinikala » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Hank W. wrote:
sinikala wrote: What is silly? The id card system or my reason for wanting the card?
You is silly. :lol:
You could get a "regular ID" card instead of the RP-card, as the RP card doesn't have the henkilötunnus. which they really want.
http://www.poliisi.fi/poliisi/home.nsf/ ... endocument

Important bit is on the 4th paragraph.

Kela card has the henkilötunnus, residence card = permanent, OK it's not a great deal of money, more point of principle, but I'd rather not pay an extra €40 and do the paperwork every 5 years.

It's academic for me, my folks have moved house in the UK, which means I have to update my UK EU driver's licence and change to a Finnish one... which means booking in for some eye test + forms, plus of course the obligatory €40... ooh, sorry €41 :lol:


Image

Re: Residence permit renewal....This again!!

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

Rosamunda
Posts: 10617
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:07 am

Re: Residence permit renewal....This again!!

Post by Rosamunda » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:51 pm

sinikala wrote: It's academic for me, my folks have moved house in the UK, which means I have to update my UK EU driver's licence and change to a Finnish one...
Why? Who cares where your parent's live? Mine live in Somerset, my drivers licence was issued in Paris. It's still valid. :? A driver's licence proves you have passed a driving test. It isn't intended to be used as proof of your legitimacy :wink:


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:04 pm

Don't think I'm gonna bother getting a permanent res. permit card. In '02, they should have already given me one :x. Instead, all they gave me was a residence permit card. Since '97, I've forked out over €80 for 2 permit cards.
Therefore, to apply for my 3rd card, this time a permanent one, will be just nonsense.

I'll just manage with my non-photo KELA card and photo ID'd British drivers license for identity purposes (shops, etc.) whilst I live in Finland. (I'm in the population register as a resident -- that's all that should matter. This permit business, quite frankly, is BS for us citizens of the 21-nations EU.)

/RS


User avatar
daryl
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:04 pm

Post by daryl » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:30 pm

penelope wrote:Call me bloodyminded if you like but, my "residents permit" expired months ago and I have made no attempt to renew it. Both Prisma and Citymarket are more than happy to take my Visa card with my expired ID.

I have a KELA card.

I have a valid British passport.

I have a valid (indefinitely 8) ) French drivers licence.

I work freelance, get paid for it and pay my taxes.

I have more than enough paperwork to prove my age, identity, sex, marital status and domicile.
This is certainly not bloodyminded IMO, but it deserves some comment all the same.

The logic of a personal identity document that can expire is a bit perverse in my view, but I understand that the motivation for issuing temporary identity documents (and for the episode a couple of years ago when previously issued open-ended identity cards were terminated by law) is that counterfeiters have become much smarter and better resourced over the years and the old cards were no longer especially secure. I therefore viewed the change as evidence of the "nanny knows best" attitude of the Nordic administrative system. In a society in which we have to prove our identity for many purposes it makes sense for the government to take responsibility for issuing reliable identity documents, and this can no longer be done by handing out cards that are "secure for life" in the old way.

After the inevitable (and frankly amusing) showdown with a very young and none-too-bright checkout assistant at Jumbo (quote: "Kyllä tiedän varmaan kuka olet, mutten voi hyväksyä tätä henkkaria.") who queried my old ID card issued by the Helsinki police in January 1992, I finally got around to requesting a nice new sähköinen henkilökortti, which is also a KELA card.

The point here is that outdated identity documents are no longer secure, and this means that at some point it will become reasonable to request other forms of identification as a condition of completing various transactions. Where this threshold arises will depend on individual discretion and concrete circumstances. The last time I showed my henkkari in our village shop was during the summer when I bought in a lot of stuff for a garden party and the shop assistant was a kesäapulainen. On the other hand, I expect to show it at Jumbo for any credit card purchase over 50 euros, and I appreciate that someone using a card that can easily be forged would not be able to use a clone of my credit card or sneak an exb10sive dev1ce onto a fIy1ng machine in my name.

What I suggest to you, penelope, is that you get yourself a valid identity and KELA card from the police. I understand that old KELA cards, though they may still work as such, are no longer acceptable as reliable proof of identity. While your doctor (and especially your dentist) is unlikely to care about this, it is in principle possible for a chemist (for example) to raise a fuss over issuing a prescription medicine with a KELA discount, even if you present your old KELA card and your in-date passport, as this combination of documents does not show that you are still covered by KELA health insurance. There are various other situations in which it may prove useful to you to have a reliable identity document and anyway, who wants to carry a passport around everywhere?

On the other side of the matter, I can see no very strong motivation for bothering with separate EU registration. As I have pointed out elsewhere, failure in this respect does not even seem to be a punishable offence in Finland. Call it a blow for Eurofederalism if you like.

It is highly unlikely that your refusal to re-register as an EU migrant will affect your request for an identity card, but this is something that it would be interesting to test. Strictly speaking, the right to an ID card depends on the Domicile Act and has nothing as such to do with EU migrant registration, at least while your residence in Finland remains legal. This, in turn, depends on Community Law and on the general provision in section 40 and chapter 10 of the Aliens Act. Community Law in particular is rather clear about your right to remain as a migrant worker or self-employed person, and it also imposes a very high expulsion threshold. Any decision refusing to issue the requested identity card is also open to appeal, and if the appeal turns on an interpretation of Community Law, then the appeal route involves the ECJ in Luxembourg.

So it comes back to you - how "bloodyminded" would you like to be?

daryl
Wo ai Zhong-guo ren


User avatar
Hank W.
The Motorhead
Posts: 29987
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Mushroom Mountain
Contact:

Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:48 pm

Rollingstone wrote: Therefore, to apply for my 3rd card, this time a permanent one, will be just nonsense.
Compared to the UK, where they don't even know who lives in the country this makes the Finnish system bad why? Just because in some country people live like cows in the pasture, doesn't mean other countries need to have similar systems. Need to rephrase that - in the UK you know how many cows you have on the pasture, but not how many cowhands. Finland and Denmark IIRC are the only countries that can do a census, a *reliable* census, with a computer run.

Or would you want to prove your address with an electricity bill?
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Rosamunda
Posts: 10617
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:07 am

Post by Rosamunda » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:05 pm

Hank W. wrote:
Or would you want to prove your address with an electricity bill?

aha.... la quittance d'EDF.... those were the days. You couldn't even buy bread in France without the electricity bill. :lol:

Daryl, I have a KELA card. It has a date of issue but NO EXPIRY date. My residence permit has expired.

(BTW, several times recently I have used my PIN number to validate my VISA purchases, seems like more and more retailers are getting the new technology)

The whole ID thing bemuses me. The only way anyone can prove their identity is DNA testing (which is IMO the way to go and I would personally have no problems with the state storing my DNA code on their Mothership computer).


Daryl wrote:
I can see no very strong motivation for bothering with separate EU registration. As I have pointed out elsewhere, failure in this respect does not even seem to be a punishable offence in Finland. Call it a blow for Eurofederalism if you like.
I don't understand that bit. What do you mean by "separate EU registration"? Are you referring to the Residence Permit? You make it sound as though I am refusing my EU identity when I actually consider myself to be more European than anything else. If someone is British, Finnish, Danish, Greek, Portugese.... why would they have to "register" to be European???? :?


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:34 pm

Hank W. wrote:
Rollingstone wrote: Therefore, to apply for my 3rd card, this time a permanent one, will be just nonsense.
Compared to the UK, where they don't even know who lives in the country this makes the Finnish system bad why? Just because in some country people live like cows in the pasture, doesn't mean other countries need to have similar systems. Need to rephrase that - in the UK you know how many cows you have on the pasture, but not how many cowhands. Finland and Denmark IIRC are the only countries that can do a census, a *reliable* census, with a computer run.

Or would you want to prove your address with an electricity bill?
No, address, as you analogize, can't be proven by an unreliable piece of paper such as a bill. Finland, as all countries, need a reliable census. Did you not read my point that I'm already in the population register? My KELA card is proof of that, with no expiration date.

And who said I said the Finnish system is bad? I didn't -- I'm just stating, as so many have before me, that the whole permit card system is an ass. I should have been given a permanent resident permit the second time round. So, basically, some way down the road, some bureaucrat could try to be an ass and say I overstayed. I'd fight that, based on the population register, KELA card, taxation, and many other matters ad nauseum. N'er mind.

/RS
Last edited by Rollingstone on Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.


User avatar
Hank W.
The Motorhead
Posts: 29987
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Mushroom Mountain
Contact:

Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:36 pm

But, your KELA-card is not a "valid proof of identity" :wink:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:42 pm

Hank W. wrote:But, your KELA-card is not a "valid proof of identity" :wink:
Please don't rewrite the book. How can a KELA card not be a valid proof of identity? If you're gonna go down the non-photo issue (for those KELA cards which aren't photo-type), there's always the passport.


User avatar
Hank W.
The Motorhead
Posts: 29987
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Mushroom Mountain
Contact:

Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:45 pm

I'm not rewriting the book. I can read the book. A photo KELA-card is not a "valid proof of identity". If it is accepted is another thing, but as it is not issued by the police, it is not "valid" in proving identity.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:49 pm

Hank W. wrote:I'm not rewriting the book. I can read the book. A photo KELA-card is not a "valid proof of identity". If it is accepted is another thing, but as it is not issued by the police, it is not "valid" in proving identity.
Gees, Hank, the police in Finland aren't the sole givers of identity. The permit is one form of identity, yes, issued by the police, yes, but a photo-type KELA card is valid identity in a Finnish court. Don't bother trying to argue with this.

Think of it like this -- does a permit have the HETU? No. Last thing, maybe you haven't recognized it yet, but whenever you go into a store, and purchase over €50, they take a glimpse of the permit, all very well, photo and all, but then ask where's the HETU. So, I show my KELA card plus photo'd driver's license in tandem. End of story. Social sec # plus photo.


User avatar
Hank W.
The Motorhead
Posts: 29987
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Mushroom Mountain
Contact:

Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:59 pm

I am going to argue with this, as KELA is not an office to get identity cards from. Being accepted is far from being valid. Your granny's knickers can have your photo and your hetu on them, and it is as valid. And the RP indeed does not have the hetu, so it is not useful in the sene, however with a KELA card it *may* be accepted... nothing states anyone *must* accept it.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:05 pm

Look, you have to concede that you can't have a KELA card without a legitimate right of residence in Finland. And I can tell you, from personal experience, that a KELA card with HETU plus photo ID, in any form, is what the police are interested in in terms of identity.

In essence, there are KELA cards with expiration dates. At that point, the system kicks in, and one could be proven as an overstayer. An indefinite KELA card is what's important.

Let's stick to the topic of valid residence.


User avatar
Hank W.
The Motorhead
Posts: 29987
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 10:00 pm
Location: Mushroom Mountain
Contact:

Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:08 pm

My sister lived abroad 20 odd years has a KELA card. How does that prove anything?
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Rollingstone
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Pohjois-Pohjanmaa

Post by Rollingstone » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:19 pm

It's prima facie evidence that she's still a resident of Finland.


Post Reply