Salaries in Helsinki, Finland

dalloma · Post by **dalloma** » Fri May 02, 2008 5:03 pm

Hi,

I've 9 years of experience in embedded Systems and I'm 30 years of age. I'm applying for a position in Nokia, Helsinki. My main expertise is in the area of Linux on embedded systems. I've also authored a book on embedded Linux.

Nokia is asking me my salary expectations and I've no idea about salaries in Nokia, Helsinki.

Please advise

Thanks

**Sponsor:**

Kupcake · Post by **Kupcake** » Fri May 02, 2008 6:45 pm

Mercers has the 2007 cost of living press release here

http://www.mercerhr.com/costofliving

It includes the housing component so keep that in mind when considering your calculations in comparison to your home city.

Best thing to do is to make sure that whatever deal you cut with Nokia includes car, insurance, immigration costs and housing (and education for your kids if you have any). The index will help you in calculatng a salary, but be aware that a lot of people have been caught out by this survey because of course it can't take into consideration individual purchasing styles. If you are from the states and can't do without your american supermarket items, your groceries bill will be huge!

I also think it helps to come over here for a "look see" visit and check it out. You'll need at least 3 or 4 days to be able to make your decision, although of course you won't be able to cover everything, just the basics. Get Nokia to pay for this trip. If you can convince them of how good you are, you shouldn't have any problem negotiating these things.

bren · Post by **bren** » Fri May 02, 2008 9:22 pm

its not going to be a problem for a nokia hio tec. specialist with a guaranteed job and all the assistance that he\she will get with accomodation etc, but pleeeease don,t take this exception to be worthy of general discussion.... more important is ,, what do teachers, dustbin men shopworkers get?and relate that to the real cost of living,,, thats living , all right. and then go hunt no more for the answer to finlands high suicide rates..

Kupcake · Post by **Kupcake** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:25 pm

bren wrote:its not going to be a problem for a nokia hio tec. specialist with a guaranteed job and all the assistance that he\she will get with accomodation etc, but pleeeease don,t take this exception to be worthy of general discussion.... more important is ,, what do teachers, dustbin men shopworkers get?and relate that to the real cost of living,,, thats living , all right. and then go hunt no more for the answer to finlands high suicide rates..

Absolutely!! But imagine what it is like for the dustbin men and nurses of Moscow and London. In a much worse situation than Finland - they rank highest and second highest cities for cost of living in the world. Don't know about their suicide rates tho' so against my better judgement i checked wikipedia here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

and Finland is ranked the 16th highest country for suicides per 100,000 per year. Russia ranks 3rd highest and United Kingdom ranks 62nd. I realise that wikipedia is hardly the most reliable resource, but for now it'll suffice.

Perhaps cost of living is simply one factor in a list of many when it comes to the devastation of suicide ...

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Fri May 02, 2008 10:32 pm

Kupcake wrote: includes car, insurance, immigration costs and housing .

Just to remind - benefits are calculated on top of salary when taxed.

Stetson method:
salary = 3000, tax of 3000 = 1000, in hand 2000
salary = 3000, house = 1000, car = 1000, tax of 5000 = 2000, in hand 1000
(the percentages can be calculated and every benefit has "tax value" so its easy to figure out once you know exactly what you get)

Kupcake · Post by **Kupcake** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:48 pm

Hank W. wrote:
Kupcake wrote: includes car, insurance, immigration costs and housing .
Just to remind - benefits are calculated on top of salary when taxed.

Stetson method:
salary = 3000, tax of 3000 = 1000, in hand 2000
salary = 3000, house = 1000, car = 1000, tax of 5000 = 2000, in hand 1000
(the percentages can be calculated and every benefit has "tax value" so its easy to figure out once you know exactly what you get)

Yes, too trúe. If Nokia are asking him his salary expectations, he can ask for the take home pay he wants. Depending on where he comes from there can be an agreement where the pay is net and the company takes care of the tax.

dalloma · Post by **dalloma** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:32 am

Thanks a lot for this very useful information

Kupcake wrote:Best thing to do is to make sure that whatever deal you cut with Nokia includes car, insurance, housing

Do you think 3000euros/month "after tax" with all these benefits is good or less or too much

Thanks again

bren · Post by **bren** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:06 am

hi, cupcake, about the wikipedia stats. on suicide rates you may notice that finland ranks highest for suicides in E.U. and comparison with mafia drived moscow says a lot.. hmm.. and the sad thing here is that Finns are not allowed to complain, t,would be unpatriotic, lacking the nescessary "SISU" , rather wrap that flag around you and go down and salute that neo-fascist statue at the top of mannerheim tie ( rather replace with a memorial to the victims of continuing opression)

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:24 am

memorial to the victims of continuing opression

Well that is just across it - the Kamppi ALKO

And if people don't like it here, the are quite free to go back to whatever paradise they came from, we don't mind at all.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:30 am

dalloma wrote: Do you think 3000euros/month "after tax" with all these benefits is good or less or too much

I'd say "pretty good" as I get that before taxes without any benefits apart from the phone, but I'm only hitting 40, a technical architecht with 10 years experience and a bachelors degree. So it kind of all depends on your lifestyle and "what do you expect". Like some people expect a mansion and a limousine (look up "size of Finnish flats" in the discussions

) and I'd be flabbergasted getting a free bus pass.

SteveS · Post by **SteveS** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:33 am

I think if you'll get €3000 in your hand you would be very well paid...!

Hanks rule is almost right...

€3500 before, is more like €2000 afterwards these day...

As a 30 year old in that kind of industry (with a high degree I hope) I would expect a starting salary of €3500 to €4000 to be more usual. You might not be lucky to even get that, it depends how much they need you...

As you might calculate that doesn't translate to €3000 in your hand here...

sbk · Post by **sbk** » Sat May 03, 2008 9:39 pm

dalloma wrote:Thanks a lot for this very useful information

Kupcake wrote:Best thing to do is to make sure that whatever deal you cut with Nokia includes car, insurance, housing
Do you think 3000euros/month "after tax" with all these benefits is good or less or too much

Thanks again

I ran some simple math on the Vero tax calculator, considering Hank's comments on how taxes are done, including benefits. Assuming salary before tax of 80000euros, and no deductions, tax works out to about 28000 euros. Now, your salary without benefits is 56000euros (assuming 24k for car and house). Deduct 28k for tax, you have 28K netto. Works out to less than 2400euros after tax...and I will guess only a handful of people in Nokia, Finland get 80Keuros salary (including benefits) and their titles probably runs like SVP etc.

So, you are very unlikely to get 3000e after tax + all those benefits! Taxation is Finland is a great leveler of take-home pays...no body's is too rich or too poor.

Disclaimer: this is my first tax yr in Finland, so there can be errors in the above argument.

Kupcake · Post by **Kupcake** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:18 pm

dalloma wrote:Thanks a lot for this very useful information

Kupcake wrote:Best thing to do is to make sure that whatever deal you cut with Nokia includes car, insurance, housing
Do you think 3000euros/month "after tax" with all these benefits is good or less or too much

Thanks again

If they give you a car, insurance and housing, and then you get 3000euros/month after tax then it's a good deal, especially if you don't have a family to support. Make sure they also include moving costs (here and back) and insurance for that. They won't volunteer you a wonderful package so you need to negotiate yourself one with them, and as i mentioned before, if they want you they'll pay. And they'll also take a pound of flesh ...

Also, if you are from America, your tax is more complicated and becomes even more so after 2 years. Check up on that with a good accountant BEFORE you leave if it applies.

sbk wrote:So, you are very unlikely to get 3000e after tax + all those benefits! Taxation is Finland is a great leveler of take-home pays...no body's is too rich or too poor.

BTW, 80K for an SVP at Nokia wouldn't be a very good package, especially for an expat.

raamv · Post by **raamv** » Mon May 05, 2008 10:57 am

you have to really think about what you are worth and then weigh in the tax, living standards, etc etc and come up with a figure for yourself and then compare against the averages to see if you Fit in that range. If not, you can end up disappointed. Moreover, If you are really good as you claim, why are you worried about quoting a higher salary? and its always good to give a low and high ( meaning range).
Remember though in Finland, ( and now in other countries) Pay raises are generally negotiated by Unions and are by far very low or negligible.
So Its always good to negotiate a salary close to your expectations. As for SVP salary and other BS that people have given here. it might not hold true.
There are many engineers that earn more than that.

hanj · Post by **hanj** » Wed May 07, 2008 10:46 pm

suddenly i feel so much better about myself...hehehe

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