Finns-friendly way of job application?

[rinso]

As for issues regarding the immigrants aho are not contributing and are rather leechin the system ofcorse they are not welcome....People acting as parasites to the society are never welcome,be it immigrants or locals...but there is no best way to prevent such people from entering Finland...It all comes with the package of Globalisation...No matter how much you cheerypick such people will always trickle in...You will have to learn to live with the drawbacks of Globalisation...you will have to go on accepting the refugees...Finland has to play its part and there is no cutting corners...

Isn't that just what Tiwaz is saying? To minimize parasites immigrants have to integrate. It is building a threshold so coming to Finland is no easy way to paradise.

[debonaire]

As for issues regarding the immigrants aho are not contributing and are rather leechin the system ofcorse they are not welcome....People acting as parasites to the society are never welcome,be it immigrants or locals...but there is no best way to prevent such people from entering Finland...It all comes with the package of Globalisation...No matter how much you cheerypick such people will always trickle in...You will have to learn to live with the drawbacks of Globalisation...you will have to go on accepting the refugees...Finland has to play its part and there is no cutting corners...

Isn't that just what Tiwaz is saying? To minimize parasites immigrants have to integrate. It is building a threshold so coming to Finland is no easy way to paradise.

No....precisely not...infact he is blaming immigration for the sins committed by a few...he is simply highlighting only the drawbacks while failing miserably to acknowledge the benefits associated with it...his is a one sided approach focussing mainly on bad immigrants while condemning the whole community for a few bad apples...He only wants good immigrants which is highly impossible...no matterhow best the process is devised to streamline the good one and bad ones,there will always be bad apples...and it is totally irrational to blame the whole package...
I think he still believes in the concept of a Utopian State and if so,then he is highly mistaken

[Karhunkoski]

I see it less as Finland trying to build a threshold to keep out the parasites, and more that Finland is actually competing for "quality immigrants". Unless it tries harder to encourage this group and help them integrate, it's Finland who misses out on getting the "stars" to move here.

If Finland adopts Tiwaz' "learn the language or sod off" attitude, when talking to educated, skilled professionals, they will mostly reply, "Fine, no problem at all, I'll just take my skills elswhere"

[debonaire]

I see it less as Finland trying to build a threshold to keep out the parasites, and more that Finland is actually competing for "quality immigrants". Unless it tries harder to encourage this group and help them integrate, it's Finland who misses out on getting the "stars" to move here.

If Finland adopts Tiwaz' "learn the language or sod off" attitude, when talking to educated, skilled professionals, they will mostly reply, "Fine, no problem at all, I'll just take my skills elswhere"

Exactly my thoughts...
I mean think of it this way...Finland is not one of the top choices when it comes to immigration...No offence intended but thats reality...There are so many impediments to cross when it comes to finland...Why an immigrant would take so much trouble of choosing and staying in Finland when the chances of a much better life are much brighter in other immigrant friendly countries such as the US...so instead of adopting a dishwash attitude,Finland would be better served in luring the skilled immigrants by coming up with better policies which is precise what the finnish government is doing at the moment...but in reality, there is a great discord/mismatch between the government's stand on immigration the the attitude of the finns...

[Karhunkoski]

by coming up with better policies which is precise what the finnish government is doing at the moment...but in reality, there is a great discord/mismatch between the government's stand on immigration the the attitude of the finns...

Yes, I've mulled this over with others, here is one possible reason why:

There is sometimes a lack of responsibility for one's own actions in Finland, people can shrug when they make an error, and know there are few consequences. For one reason and another, life can be quite forgiving here (certainly more than others places I have worked). Few people will directly criticise someone for cocking up - well nobody wants to offend anyone do they? And you're more than likely related through blood or marriage anyway

So this means it can be quite easy to have an opinion, knowing full well that if things go badly in the economy in the future, and one realises one "got it wrong", well of course the government will come along and pick up the pieces, paying out welfare benefits, even if it takes the government into debt Well they have to, don't they! The alternative would be civil unrest and instability, and then what? Before you know it, you'll have the neighbours wandering here again, throwing their weight around

So this puts today's government in somewhat of a boggle. Their predecessors have spent the last 6 decades trumpeting Finland and "Finnishness", be proud of our culture, be proud of our boys who defended out identity, how we repelled those who tried to change our way of doing things.

But now suddenly, the government bean counters turn up with their glitzy excel spreadsheets, their computer models of population growth, etc., and suddenly the government realise that in the near future, the numbers just don't add up. They need more people, otherwise the overdraft is going to grow (paitsi a mass cull of pensioners ). They now need to sell the idea of immigration, and more importantly, secure sufficient funds to market Finland, and then successfully integrate those who choose to come.

But the problem they have is....the people they need to convince are the people like Tiwaz, Onkko and to some extent, Hank. Me? I'm convinced that problems will come, but then I won't be wholly reliant on a Finnish pension to pay for my denture adhesive.

Just a thought.

[Pursuivant]

Few people will directly criticise someone for cocking up - well nobody wants to offend anyone do they? And you're more than likely related through blood or marriage anyway

or like this weekend. was in the local and met up a guy I met a few years back and his mate. his mate knew well my ex-coworker. we sat in a table another guy sat up - hes working for company x and lo and behold well versed with one of my coworkers... then remembering the bouncer went to the same school as my third coworker lets say that finland is f*n small you can go piss in anyones cheerios...

[rinso]

I mean think of it this way...Finland is not one of the top choices when it comes to immigration...No offence intended but thats reality...There are so many impediments to cross when it comes to finland...Why an immigrant would take so much trouble of choosing and staying in Finland when the chances of a much better life are much brighter in other immigrant friendly countries such as the US...so instead of adopting a dishwash attitude,Finland would be better served in luring the skilled immigrants by coming up with better policies

Yes, I can agree with that. But to get this specialised people you need a fine mesh sieve and a stimulant for people who pass the sieve. Just opening the gates will bring in a lot of people you don't really need. And treating them well and supporting them will dilute the help you can give to the specialists. (making it less attractive for them to come)

.but in reality, there is a great discord/mismatch between the government's stand on immigration the the attitude of the finns...

Which is caused by fear of the unwanted effects of immigration they see in other countries.

[Pursuivant]

when the chances of a much better life are much brighter in other immigrant friendly countries such as the US...

yeah real immigrant friendly, go there to be shot 50 times by the police...

[Tiwaz]

As for issues regarding the immigrants aho are not contributing and are rather leechin the system ofcorse they are not welcome....People acting as parasites to the society are never welcome,be it immigrants or locals...but there is no best way to prevent such people from entering Finland...It all comes with the package of Globalisation...No matter how much you cheerypick such people will always trickle in...You will have to learn to live with the drawbacks of Globalisation...you will have to go on accepting the refugees...Finland has to play its part and there is no cutting corners...

Isn't that just what Tiwaz is saying? To minimize parasites immigrants have to integrate. It is building a threshold so coming to Finland is no easy way to paradise.

No....precisely not...infact he is blaming immigration for the sins committed by a few...he is simply highlighting only the drawbacks while failing miserably to acknowledge the benefits associated with it...his is a one sided approach focussing mainly on bad immigrants while condemning the whole community for a few bad apples...He only wants good immigrants which is highly impossible...no matterhow best the process is devised to streamline the good one and bad ones,there will always be bad apples...and it is totally irrational to blame the whole package...
I think he still believes in the concept of a Utopian State and if so,then he is highly mistaken

Immigration, when permitted to take place unchallenged, will bring ALWAYS problems.

Integration is the key. If we look at France, is it first generation immigrants who are problem there?

No, second and third generation are. They are failures who have not integrated into society because their parents never integrated. So it starts from parents. Permitting workers who do not integrate to immigrate, means that you will in 2 decades have two or three times their number of unintegrated semi-immigrants who do not fit in. And are angry because they do not fit in.

And that is when trouble starts.
You can't boot them out because they are citizens in paper by birth, but not natives by culture.

That is problem of "fixing" temporary worker shortage with permanent addition of unintegrating populace.

To prevent this, we must make it mandatory (somehow) for immigrants to integrate. It cuts off amount of immigrants in initial phase yes. But in long term it gives us peace, stability and prosperity. Specially when situations like ones existing in UK, France and Germany start to get worse and spread out.

At that point, being able to point out into tiny country far north where such things are unheard of because unwanted are kept away with demands of integration will look incredibly good to every immigrant.

And those days are close. Even as it is, it is stability and safety with which Finland combats for immigrants. And by making them integrate, we make certain our stability and safety are not compromised in future.

[Pursuivant]

look now at spain, they're paying for immigrants to move back home as if they were a commodity to trade with...

[catchmeifucan]

Immigration, when permitted to take place unchallenged, will bring ALWAYS problems.

Integration is the key. If we look at France, is it first generation immigrants who are problem there?

No, second and third generation are. They are failures who have not integrated into society because their parents never integrated. So it starts from parents. Permitting workers who do not integrate to immigrate, means that you will in 2 decades have two or three times their number of unintegrated semi-immigrants who do not fit in. And are angry because they do not fit in.

And that is when trouble starts.
You can't boot them out because they are citizens in paper by birth, but not natives by culture.

That is problem of "fixing" temporary worker shortage with permanent addition of unintegrating populace.

To prevent this, we must make it mandatory (somehow) for immigrants to integrate. It cuts off amount of immigrants in initial phase yes. But in long term it gives us peace, stability and prosperity. Specially when situations like ones existing in UK, France and Germany start to get worse and spread out.

At that point, being able to point out into tiny country far north where such things are unheard of because unwanted are kept away with demands of integration will look incredibly good to every immigrant.

And those days are close. Even as it is, it is stability and safety with which Finland combats for immigrants. And by making them integrate, we make certain our stability and safety are not compromised in future.

I have always believed integration is the key. But, my dear friend. If you demand integration, you demand high end tax payers, you demand white skinned blue eyed immigrants. I suggest you point out what you expect from a immigrant point by point...don't just give lectures on this issue rather provide some concrete points.
And, please don't say speak the language. It is not easy to learn if you don't have a Finnish friend or a partner to practice after a whole day of work or weeks long business trips abroad earning money for my Finnish company fighting with the customers to give my company edge over others by showing the quality products and engineering that we have here in Finland. By the way, I have spent few hundreds of euros on these courses. They teach you grammer and writing. Focus is not at all given to how to actually speak the language in a public place. Yes, they ALSO tell you to practice speaking with your Finnish partner. I don't have one and have no energy also to get one. I am too busy with my work.
And, as I said before it is those whom you have brought here creates the problems not people like me OR debonaire so, PLEASE SPARE US AND LET US DO OUR JOBS AND LIVE OUR LIVES.

EDIT: Or else will go somewhere else.
EDIT: EDIT: Just a change of mind. I intend to live my whole life here as I like this country. I would also like to see how difficult can you make for immigrants to live here. I have till now followed all the rules and will continue to do so, never ever break a single law, pay as much taxes as I can, not take any benefits and one day speak the language and write a book about my experience in FINNISH as well as ENGLISH.

[Tiwaz]

I have always believed integration is the key. But, my dear friend. If you demand integration, you demand high end tax payers, you demand white skinned blue eyed immigrants. I suggest you point out what you expect from a immigrant point by point...don't just give lectures on this issue rather provide some concrete points.
And, please don't say speak the language. It is not easy to learn if you don't have a Finnish friend or a partner to practice after a whole day of work or weeks long business trips abroad earning money for my Finnish company fighting with the customers to give my company edge over others by showing the quality products and engineering that we have here in Finland. By the way, I have spent few hundreds of euros on these courses. They teach you grammer and writing. Focus is not at all given to how to actually speak the language in a public place. Yes, they ALSO tell you to practice speaking with your Finnish partner. I don't have one and have no energy also to get one. I am too busy with my work.
And, as I said before it is those whom you have brought here creates the problems not people like me OR debonaire so, PLEASE SPARE US AND LET US DO OUR JOBS AND LIVE OUR LIVES.

EDIT: Or else will go somewhere else.
EDIT: EDIT: Just a change of mind. I intend to live my whole life here as I like this country. I would also like to see how difficult can you make for immigrants to live here. I have till now followed all the rules and will continue to do so, never ever break a single law, pay as much taxes as I can, not take any benefits and one day speak the language and write a book about my experience in FINNISH as well as ENGLISH.

Integration means language and culture. Culture and language cannot be separated. Language represents culture, as it is formed and changed along the changes of culture.

Thus, integration equals learning language and culture and behaving/using them.

I never have stated anything about what colour of skin immigrant should have.

All I have demanded is that if they intend to stay, they must integrate. More appeasement there is towards immigrants, less likely they are to integrate.
If they can get away without integrating, quite a lot never do. They always come up with excuses.

How you learn, your problem. If you do not think option A works, figure out option B.

If you learn finnish and culture best in hypnosis, go get hypnotised. If you prefer subconscious learning through listening to tape while sleeping, be my guest.

My point to you...

IF YOU IMMIGRATE, YOU INTEGRATE.
No excuses, no exceptions. If french, british and rest of the "desirable" immigration targets had used this policy, they would have far less problems today.

[debonaire]

Immigration, when permitted to take place unchallenged, will bring ALWAYS problems.

Integration is the key. If we look at France, is it first generation immigrants who are problem there?

No, second and third generation are. They are failures who have not integrated into society because their parents never integrated. So it starts from parents. Permitting workers who do not integrate to immigrate, means that you will in 2 decades have two or three times their number of unintegrated semi-immigrants who do not fit in. And are angry because they do not fit in.

And that is when trouble starts.
You can't boot them out because they are citizens in paper by birth, but not natives by culture.

That is problem of "fixing" temporary worker shortage with permanent addition of unintegrating populace.

To prevent this, we must make it mandatory (somehow) for immigrants to integrate. It cuts off amount of immigrants in initial phase yes. But in long term it gives us peace, stability and prosperity. Specially when situations like ones existing in UK, France and Germany start to get worse and spread out.

At that point, being able to point out into tiny country far north where such things are unheard of because unwanted are kept away with demands of integration will look incredibly good to every immigrant.

And those days are close. Even as it is, it is stability and safety with which Finland combats for immigrants. And by making them integrate, we make certain our stability and safety are not compromised in future.

I have always believed integration is the key. But, my dear friend. If you demand integration, you demand high end tax payers, you demand white skinned blue eyed immigrants. I suggest you point out what you expect from a immigrant point by point...don't just give lectures on this issue rather provide some concrete points.
And, please don't say speak the language. It is not easy to learn if you don't have a Finnish friend or a partner to practice after a whole day of work or weeks long business trips abroad earning money for my Finnish company fighting with the customers to give my company edge over others by showing the quality products and engineering that we have here in Finland. By the way, I have spent few hundreds of euros on these courses. They teach you grammer and writing. Focus is not at all given to how to actually speak the language in a public place. Yes, they ALSO tell you to practice speaking with your Finnish partner. I don't have one and have no energy also to get one. I am too busy with my work.
And, as I said before it is those whom you have brought here creates the problems not people like me OR debonaire so, PLEASE SPARE US AND LET US DO OUR JOBS AND LIVE OUR LIVES.

EDIT: Or else will go somewhere else.
EDIT: EDIT: Just a change of mind. I intend to live my whole life here as I like this country. I would also like to see how difficult can you make for immigrants to live here. I have till now followed all the rules and will continue to do so, never ever break a single law, pay as much taxes as I can, not take any benefits and one day speak the language and write a book about my experience in FINNISH as well as ENGLISH.

[debonaire]

hey catch me,do you have any idea what our immigrant friendly finn keeps talking about the problems caused by immigration in other european countries...aren't they caused mostly by illegal immigrants and refugees...and still those very countries are more open to immigration...

and he comes us with his formula of integration...adopt finnish culture and forget about your own roots and your culture as he has no respect for any other culture...i suppose he has never come across the word multi-cultural society...no wonder he makes it as a white mans burden to force every immigrant to adopt his glorious culture...i respect it but i am not interested in wearing your culture,so piss off...
As far as the language is concerned,I will learn it with time...thats not an issue as it will only make my life much easier....

Your economy will barely survive without our help...or are you going to make your grandfathers and grandmothers keep working till thay attain nirvana...Lets face it..you people are only getting older and need us desperately...

If you need our help,then its your job to help us in return by providing us with better facilities and resources so that learning the language and knowing about your culture doesn't become a big pain in the a$$...ofcorse the motivation and determination has to come from within but the tools to ignite this motivation so that integration becomes an easier process,should not onle be made freely accessible but also should be easier to use and navigate...

[onkko]

I have always believed integration is the key. But, my dear friend. If you demand integration, you demand high end tax payers, you demand white skinned blue eyed immigrants. I suggest you point out what you expect from a immigrant point by point...don't just give lectures on this issue rather provide some concrete points.
And, please don't say speak the language. It is not easy to learn if you don't have a Finnish friend or a partner to practice after a whole day of work or weeks long business trips abroad earning money for my Finnish company fighting with the customers to give my company edge over others by showing the quality products and engineering that we have here in Finland. By the way, I have spent few hundreds of euros on these courses. They teach you grammer and writing. Focus is not at all given to how to actually speak the language in a public place. Yes, they ALSO tell you to practice speaking with your Finnish partner. I don't have one and have no energy also to get one. I am too busy with my work.
And, as I said before it is those whom you have brought here creates the problems not people like me OR debonaire so, PLEASE SPARE US AND LET US DO OUR JOBS AND LIVE OUR LIVES.

EDIT: Or else will go somewhere else.
EDIT: EDIT: Just a change of mind. I intend to live my whole life here as I like this country. I would also like to see how difficult can you make for immigrants to live here. I have till now followed all the rules and will continue to do so, never ever break a single law, pay as much taxes as I can, not take any benefits and one day speak the language and write a book about my experience in FINNISH as well as ENGLISH.

I can say what i want from someone who comes in here.

- Works (if short/moderate re-education is needed then ok, it probably is. Or if young then education but then please stay), for working speaking/understanding finnish is big+. Its not easy to get job without.

- Wont try to shove their beliefs and wont demand we change how we live. (good example how to do is if youre indian wegan, dont yell if we eat your precious cows or if youre muslim yes we eat pigs and its good and dog isnt filthy animal)

- Wont be offended and yell racism in every corner (friend of mine was in Helsinki last weekend, "ethnic minority" were beating teenager and police happend just come, he tried to flee and after short chase police catched "ethnic minority. He instantly yelled "this is rasicm!", f...ng its not free from all card)

- Lives according to finnish law and partly customs, you dont have to celebrate juhannus/joulu but dont be offended if we do and please youre welcome to participiate. By customs i mean dont touch, dont come too close etc please. (its hard to explain, just try to "fit in" even little, different customs are fun only while, after that they annoy) youll learn This helps in getting/keeping work too.

- Dont bring your clan and cousins here live with taxpayers money.

If you can do this then you can be



And i dont mind.

Seems you are doing fine and youre one of what we need.