Finns-friendly way of job application?

[Tiwaz]

Yet, everyone is not IT wizard. And competition even in that field can be tough, depending on location.
Right now they are hiring left and right, but as economic slowdown hits, there will be less jobs.

If economic slowdown hits the world then it will be less jobs in every area. Currently, IT is least affected area. Anyway, it is not wise to plan your future in pessimistic expectations only.

Remember IT bubble? Of course not. IT will be hit hard too, because it provides stuff for other businesses. If other businesses can't afford to get new software and lisences, IT has less jobs.

Employers are not social security.

Oh, really, excellent conclusion!

So why you pretend that they somehow have to hire immigrant idjit who can't do the lingo?

But ground rule is that no finnish = no job.

This is above is somewhat un-true. The biggest issue in job hunter for foreign is work permit, only next, is the language. The language requirement is not equal in all specialities, there are 3 categories (IMHO):

1. housekeeping, window cleaning, garbage collection, etc. Here is language requirements are very basic. 300 words is good enough.

And jobs available in this area are... Not that common. Also very gratifying for someone with higher education to become the trashcan guy.

2. Some mid class jobs, like factory workers, clerks, sails mans, etc. Here is yes, normally, it is very hard to get a job without Finnish language.

Basically everything where you are expected to communicate with finns requires finnish.

3. Qualified professionals, software programmers, doctors, teachers, engineers, etc. As more skills you have, aka, as more profit a person can make for its company as less need in his Finnish language. Commonly, the salaries at this group is much better then in first two. If you target on this group, you should decide where spend your effort on learning language or growing up professional skills and obtaining certificates. Also, I guess, you understand, that even you would learn the language you will be just as equal as other finns, but you should be better to competitive.

Only in rare cases.

First, you have to be competent. MORE competent than your finnish competitors. Who are not exactly nonexistent.
Second, job has to be one which does not require finnish. So jobs in companies who mainly do business in Finland will be out of question, specially if you are expected to communicate with clients.

And again, you need to be in position where you are not expected to communicate.

Your suggestion of teacher and doctor are precisely ones where finnish is must.
Most positions requiring competent teacher require you to teach to finns. Guess what language finns are taught in... In FINNISH.

Because teacher who can't get students to learn because he/she can't make him/herself understood is waste of money.

Doctor. You are worthless as doctor if there is huge risk of misunderstanding because you do not understand language of patient.

Maybe in some uncivilized parts of the world it is considered valid method to communicate with patient with hand signals and pantomime, but over here it is risk of malpractice and unacceptable.

[catchmeifucan]

I completely with Tiwaz in certain area's here are my experiences:
1. IT is not the core sector of any economy so, if the core sectors are hit. IT goes down. It can go down real bad.
2. Normal jobs are impossible without language skills unless ones partner employs him/her.
3. Now comes the area where one need to have some talent in Hi-Tech without language skills:
a. One has to be atleast 3 times or more efficient in generating revenue with ratio to investment. Yes, that's what matters. If you are ordinary. Don't waste your time. If you think you are very good in what you do as a foreigner then fine. Finn managers are intelligent enought to appreciate your skills.
b. Is not in directly involved with local customers.
c. Need to have patience as ones skills will make other jealous so, have to understand that animosity will increase as one moves up. But, having a open discussion with fellow workers can ease this problem. Once they understand that, one is a team member they will at times give even some non-finnish help (pun intended).
d. Trust among fellow workers is very important. Takes time but, once people trust you things get much easier. As the foreigners way of doing things is always weird to a Finn. This feeling is not logical it is more of mental. So, having a trust worthy relationship helps.
e. Finally, in Hi-Tech a foreigner need not be good. That's not enough. He/she has to be brilliant. Must be having a reputation which cannot be questioned and the situation has to be like that the employer has no reason to think even twice.

[Tiwaz]

d. Trust among fellow workers is very important. Takes time but, once people trust you things get much easier. As the foreigners way of doing things is always weird to a Finn. This feeling is not logical it is more of mental. So, having a trust worthy relationship helps

Regarding this point... Remember that your way of doing things may not be The Right Way.

If you can do your job differently without affecting rest of workplace, enjoy yourself.

If you can't, ask yourself if it is for employer simpler to change way one worker behaves (if necessary by firing your ass) or twenty....

[Karhunkoski]

d. Trust among fellow workers is very important. Takes time but, once people trust you things get much easier. As the foreigners way of doing things is always weird to a Finn. This feeling is not logical it is more of mental. So, having a trust worthy relationship helps

Regarding this point... Remember that your way of doing things may not be The Right Way.

Or on the other hand, an immigrant could bring new ways of thinking, fresh ideas and improve productivity.

Either way, bosses will decide whether it's the right way or not

[catchmeifucan]

d. Trust among fellow workers is very important. Takes time but, once people trust you things get much easier. As the foreigners way of doing things is always weird to a Finn. This feeling is not logical it is more of mental. So, having a trust worthy relationship helps

Regarding this point... Remember that your way of doing things may not be The Right Way.

If you can do your job differently without affecting rest of workplace, enjoy yourself.

If you can't, ask yourself if it is for employer simpler to change way one worker behaves (if necessary by firing your ass) or twenty....

You have a point but, in big projects one cannot work as one feels. It hurts the project in long-term. Rather, a good team member will try to place logical validity to the type/method he/she proposes. At the end of the day, if that is good for the company it will be accepted or if it is not it will be transhed.

[catchmeifucan]

d. Trust among fellow workers is very important. Takes time but, once people trust you things get much easier. As the foreigners way of doing things is always weird to a Finn. This feeling is not logical it is more of mental. So, having a trust worthy relationship helps

Regarding this point... Remember that your way of doing things may not be The Right Way.

Or on the other hand, an immigrant could bring new ways of thinking, fresh ideas and improve productivity.

Either way, bosses will decide whether it's the right way or not

I agree. Ultimately, my boss decides but, if I have a idea about some new stuff/method no matter how weird others may think about it why not pass it on to the boss. If it is worth or not let him decide.

[Tiwaz]

Or on the other hand, an immigrant could bring new ways of thinking, fresh ideas and improve productivity.

Either way, bosses will decide whether it's the right way or not

Or add useless chatter.

And boss will always weigh two things. How much it benefits and how much it costs.

As said, 20 people who do not feel ok with switch overweight one guy who thinks his way is just peaches. It has to be huge advantage for employer to go through trouble of forcing rest of the workforce to adopt to it.

So, in the end of the day it is more likely that immigrant as small minority has to change or go.

[Oombongo]

become a wart in their tail pipe. Call them after sending you e-mail. This way they will remember you. Keep calling unless they will say yes or no.

[rinso]

It is quite doable, contact OPH. I'm myseft legalized my diploma /master in computer science/ and I know one teacher who did the same. In OPH could require some few mounth practice, at local hospital and attend training. It takes sometime, but no major problems as long as person has the diploma and had wide practice in his home country.

Unemployment among foreigners is 20+ % among Fins it is 5 or 6 %. That is an indication how "doable" it is for foreigners to find a job compared to Fins. The main problems are: 1 - language, 2 - foreign education and diplomas, 3 - cultural differences. You have to deal with each of them before you'll become easily employable.

[catchmeifucan]

It is quite doable, contact OPH. I'm myseft legalized my diploma /master in computer science/ and I know one teacher who did the same. In OPH could require some few mounth practice, at local hospital and attend training. It takes sometime, but no major problems as long as person has the diploma and had wide practice in his home country.

Unemployment among foreigners is 20+ % among Fins it is 5 or 6 %. That is an indication how "doable" it is for foreigners to find a job compared to Fins. The main problems are: 1 - language, 2 - foreign education and diplomas, 3 - cultural differences. You have to deal with each of them before you'll become easily employable.

Regarding the question of "doable" foreigners:
1. The bulk chunk of good educated immigrants (from non-EU countries and EU) goes to more friendlier places like US, UK, Canada, Australia etc. (English language plays a important part also). The majority of immigrants that Finland has today are asylum seekers. I may be wrong but, they make quite a lot in number. They also comprise of able people whose talents need to be tapped.
2. The quality of immigrants in Finland has very recently gone up. Now don't get me wrong but, if someone arrives to Finland just by hear say that there are lot of jobs here. Getting a job can be a shocking experience for that person.
3. Moreover, the Finnish soceity is not accustomed to see high quality foreign labour specially if one is not white (color does play a role : not in the work place but in general life). Their perception is clouded by the fact that every foreigner lives on benefit and is a potential criminal. That's kind of stupid. In this context, I should say the Finnish businesses are more intelligent in finding capable people from where ever they can get. Because, inovation is the key to future sucess. Fresh blood and idea's always helps.
4. In the global economy, one cannot afford to survive with a single minded approach. So, Finland needs to be more inclusive of all types of people.
5. But again, if one is treated like a cat and not allowed to fight for life one will not fight (pun intended).

You bring a very important point that, now those who are here must be given priority over those who are newly arriving in search of better life unless one arrives with a job. I completely agree to it.

[Tiwaz]

Problem in this field again lies in certain sense in immigrant corner of the field.

Everyone talks how immigrants should be more "included" and all that crap.

Problem is, this is Finland. We, finns, want this to STAY as Finland. Finland has it's own unique language, unique culture. Those are terms we lay to everyone. Respect those two.

Immigrants tend to refuse. It is understandable, it's alien place. Everything is so strange. It gives nice warm blanket of safety to stick to the ways of home. Try to stay as whateveristanists as possible.

But that does not make person belong to Finland.


Finland should not change, immigrants must change to fit Finland.
It is not easy, it is not fast. But sooner you get to it, sooner you are done with it.
But still people resist. They hope and want to find nice corner of whateveristan for themselves in Finland. Have a job and full life without language skills. They do not want to integrate into and behave according to local cultural norms.

Great way of building slums as we see in other countries.
USA? The "melting" pot? Chinatown, Little Havana. Little Sicily and whatnot.
France. Muslim 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants rioting because they do not belong to french society. They, or their parents, have failed to integrate. Parents failing to do that tends to reflect into their children. Who then are not french nor algerian (or whatever).

And list goes on and on.

[catchmeifucan]

Problem in this field again lies in certain sense in immigrant corner of the field.

Everyone talks how immigrants should be more "included" and all that crap.

Problem is, this is Finland. We, finns, want this to STAY as Finland. Finland has it's own unique language, unique culture. Those are terms we lay to everyone. Respect those two.

Immigrants tend to refuse. It is understandable, it's alien place. Everything is so strange. It gives nice warm blanket of safety to stick to the ways of home. Try to stay as whateveristanists as possible.

But that does not make person belong to Finland.

Finland should not change, immigrants must change to fit Finland.
It is not easy, it is not fast. But sooner you get to it, sooner you are done with it.
But still people resist. They hope and want to find nice corner of whateveristan for themselves in Finland. Have a job and full life without language skills. They do not want to integrate into and behave according to local cultural norms.
Great way of building slums as we see in other countries.
USA? The "melting" pot? Chinatown, Little Havana. Little Sicily and whatnot.
France. Muslim 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants rioting because they do not belong to french society. They, or their parents, have failed to integrate. Parents failing to do that tends to reflect into their children. Who then are not french nor algerian (or whatever).

And list goes on and on.

I somewhat agree with what you have said. Question is how to achieve this so, that we (immigrants) and you (locals) live in peace and you don't thow bottles at us when you see us. The culture is adaptable within 2 years but, the language is not. There can be exceptions.
You cannot expect a person working hard and making money for his Finnish company in Finland and abroad to spend whole day learning Finnish (my boss will have an heart attack). I do agree it will be much much easier to deal with locals if one learns Finnish. But, it takes time. I also don't want Finland to change. But, you cannot treat every immigrants as potential criminals if their skin color is not white. And, stop thinking every brown guy is a refugeeeeee and lives on benefits .
Now, the only institution which can ensure that a immigrant is properly made aware of these facts is the goverment. I have been here few years. Earned for this country and myself from the first day. But, till date I have not met a single person who have told me what to do and how to do and those sorts of thing. I had very good boss and office co-workers who have help me in every possible way to get me accustomed to the rules and customs etc. Everyone is not so lucky as me.
So, my advice to you is stop complaining about immigrants and start doing something to really provide them with cultural and language skills (I mean for those who have a job and pay taxes; trust me there is not proper program for foreigners who earn and pay taxes; but, strangely there are programs for unemployed immigrants).

As far as I as a immigrant is concerned I am actually working with some locals to make something like this available so that, Finland does not become France. But, considering the way it is moving it is destined to become France as the sit beside me in the bus is still vacant since I arrived here. May, be I need to buy a SUV.

[Tiwaz]

You forget that large amount of immigrants do not have a job.
Neither they have any hope of being employed.

You got a job. Good for you.
Three others like you got job too.
How you sort out your language studies is your problem to be honest. As said, it is more issue of motivation.

But the fifth guy did not. He is unlikely to get one too. He does not speak finnish, he fails in concept of behaving along proper cultural norms and he ruins reputation of you and your three working friends.

It is this 20% which is source of problems. They are rather huge problem too in this perspective. These are guys who do not work, they are also often unlikely to integrate. Nor have they motivation.

So how about concentrating on these guys instead of presenting immigrants who work. Working immigrants rarely cause problems, except by posting in boards like this and giving others who want to immigrate false image on how easy it is to land a job.

Because in the end, workers who have ambition to get further will have the motivation to learn and adapt. They will in the end find way to do so without intervention.

[Karhunkoski]

Nice that catchmeifucan, most sensible post I've read in months, thanks.

I posted on the other thread that I wasn't wholly convinced that immigration was a good idea here in Finland. One of the main reasons is that I'm not wholly convinced that they (Finns) are ready for it, or indeed, will ever be ready for it Many share Tiswas' "Learn or Sod Off" attitude, and are unlikely to support further government spending on helping immigrants. There's nothing wrong with having this attitude (it's a free country!), however unfortunately it isn't particularly conducive with successful integration

[Tiwaz]

Integration means learning local norms and obeying them.

Current "multicultural" idealism is very opposite of integration. And as said, it all comes down to motivation. Unmotivated person does not learn.

Spending more money on something that does not result in something is pointless. First we have to figure way to make every immigrant motivated, then consider if using more money in actual teaching is needed.

Else we can shovel into immigration all the money in budget of Finland and get out nothing.

I have seen it everywhere. Unmotivated little bastard never learns, no matter how much you try to teach.