Finns-friendly way of job application?

[Karhunkoski]

First we have to figure way to make every immigrant motivated, then consider if using more money in actual teaching is needed.

Now you're talking!


That is the problem, let me give an example of the sort of thing I see at work:

me> We need to make this particular person/team more effective, make them learn these particular skills that they need.
other> Well they SHOULD learn that without our asking
me> Have they learned it so far?
other> No, but they SHOULD learn it
me> Yes, but they haven't yet, we need another approach, we need to find another way
other> Yes, but they SHOULD learn it, it is part of their job, we shouldn't have to ask them.
me> Yes yes, but the old approach hasn't worked, has it?
other> True it hasn't, but they SHOULD do it, it is part of their job
me> Look, stop being so stubborn. It is results that count. It matters nothing whether they SHOULD learn these skills, if the current approach isn't working, we need to find a new way.
other> Um.

And that IMO is how the Finnish mindset works. It is much easier to sit and stubbornly repeat that something SHOULD happen in a certain way, rather than using more energy and effort to actually get off ones bottom and think of a new way to make it happen.

I admit something of a generalisation, but I have seen this many many times now, in more than one organisation.

But back to immigration, and getting immigrants to learn Finnish...... The current approach isn't working so well. We can be stubborn and simply say, "they SHOULD learn it", but that isn't going to help in the future when Finland finds it has a bunch of immigrants, throwing stones and bottles because they weren't integrated properly..

[catchmeifucan]

You forget that large amount of immigrants do not have a job.
Neither they have any hope of being employed.

You got a job. Good for you.
Three others like you got job too.
How you sort out your language studies is your problem to be honest. As said, it is more issue of motivation.

But the fifth guy did not. He is unlikely to get one too. He does not speak finnish, he fails in concept of behaving along proper cultural norms and he ruins reputation of you and your three working friends.

It is this 20% which is source of problems. They are rather huge problem too in this perspective. These are guys who do not work, they are also often unlikely to integrate. Nor have they motivation.

So how about concentrating on these guys instead of presenting immigrants who work. Working immigrants rarely cause problems, except by posting in boards like this and giving others who want to immigrate false image on how easy it is to land a job.

Because in the end, workers who have ambition to get further will have the motivation to learn and adapt. They will in the end find way to do so without intervention.

If you had read my earlier posts you will notice that, I did mention about the group of immigrants who are jobless. I know few of them. My heart goes out for them and anyone who is capable but cannot find a job. But, I am helpless. I never said in my posts that it is easy to land a job. Rather, I have mention very clearly that, some people arrive to Finland hoping to get a job. That's the bloody mistake. Read, my earlier posts carefully I have mentioned about these issue.
Now, for I am not a blame it on others kind of person. I try to find solutions.

[debonaire]

Nice that catchmeifucan, most sensible post I've read in months, thanks.

I posted on the other thread that I wasn't wholly convinced that immigration was a good idea here in Finland. One of the main reasons is that I'm not wholly convinced that they (Finns) are ready for it, or indeed, will ever be ready for it Many share Tiswas' "Learn or Sod Off" attitude, and are unlikely to support further government spending on helping immigrants. There's nothing wrong with having this attitude (it's a free country!), however unfortunately it isn't particularly conducive with successful integration

Yah its a free country and finns have all the rights to think the way they want...but the question is: is it really beneficial for Finland ? Is there any logic in their anti immigration thinking?Are they being justified in their repulsive outlook to immigration by being zealously patriotic abd ignoring the long term benefits that immigration can bring about?...Besides,can they even afford to persist with this kind of attitude considering that Finland has one of the oldest population in the world?How will the country manage to pay for the pension and other social benefits if there aren't enough finns working to pay taxes?
How the finnish economy would survive if it listens to people like tiswas...it would be a nightmare...now tiswas can think and yell whatever he wants but the point is-does he deserve a listening or its just another drunk crying hoarse on seeing a foreigner.....these people have no understanding how much revenue us immigrants are generating and how invaluable our contribution is for the finnish economy...Instead of being grateful,he chooses to be bitchy...as usual

Immigration is a two way process....Not only the immigrant has to change but the country also has to bend in order to adapt to the needs of immigration...don't go on making the immigrant wholly responsible for effective transition to the local environment...If the immigrant fails to effectively integrate into the society,then it would not be only his/her loss,but would also be a loss to the society and to the country itself...and if you would choose to continuosly ignore this fact ingrates,then in the end finns and finland would end up being the losers...
Remember:As much as an immigrant need finland,its Finland which desperatel needs immigrants...Your government has been going around places to attract immigrants,requesting them to ´make finland their home so that they could bring in their skills ,ideas and direly needed labor to help sustanin the finnish economy...

By the way,when you talk about crime and unemployment amongst foreigners,its mostly the refugees who make the bulk of the percentage...citing them as troublemakers and holding them responsible for creating the bad image of foreigners while discounting the achievements of other hardworking immigrants is being totally ignorant,ingrateful and disrespectful for all the contribution they have made...And going by your logic of 20%,then I could safely say that all finns are drunk and sociopaths, who go around armed with kitchen knives and riding cycles for hours hunting for a possible victim to kill just for the sake of fun...now what kind of image that would create of local finns???
but if I am to believe in your logic of 20%,then there wouldn't be any difference between you and me and I sincerely wish not to stoop down to your level under any circumstances...
As Karhunkoski has pointed out earlier that finns are not yet ready to embrace immigration with all their hearts and i second that...there is still a feeling of iron curtain amongst them... Some Finns like everything Global but when it comes to them,they are rigidly Local....An irony in itself..

[catchmeifucan]

Integration means learning local norms and obeying them.

Current "multicultural" idealism is very opposite of integration. And as said, it all comes down to motivation. Unmotivated person does not learn.

Spending more money on something that does not result in something is pointless. First we have to figure way to make every immigrant motivated, then consider if using more money in actual teaching is needed.

Else we can shovel into immigration all the money in budget of Finland and get out nothing.

I have seen it everywhere. Unmotivated little bastard never learns, no matter how much you try to teach.

Your statement actually points that there has been a serious lack of proper planning on immigration. Because, whom the goverment brought failed to contribute (majority), But, those whom the companies brought. Started paying back from the first day (majority; except the ones who are brought for slavery). So, I again repeat now stop treating the ones the goverment brought as cats and dogs. Enough of pampering. Tell them to earn their bread and they will learn.
If they work and pay back then, it will be a less number of bottles thown at me when I walk in the evening.

[catchmeifucan]

Nice that catchmeifucan, most sensible post I've read in months, thanks.

I posted on the other thread that I wasn't wholly convinced that immigration was a good idea here in Finland. One of the main reasons is that I'm not wholly convinced that they (Finns) are ready for it, or indeed, will ever be ready for it Many share Tiswas' "Learn or Sod Off" attitude, and are unlikely to support further government spending on helping immigrants. There's nothing wrong with having this attitude (it's a free country!), however unfortunately it isn't particularly conducive with successful integration

Yah its a free country and finns have all the rights to think the way they want...but the question is: is it really beneficial for Finland ? Is there any logic in their anti immigration thinking?Are they being justified in their repulsive outlook to immigration by being zealously patriotic abd ignoring the long term benefits that immigration can bring about?...Besides,can they even afford to persist with this kind of attitude considering that Finland has one of the oldest population in the world?How will the country manage to pay for the pension and other social benefits if there aren't enough finns working to pay taxes?
How the finnish economy would survive if it listens to people like tiswas...it would be a nightmare...now tiswas can think and yell whatever he wants but the point is-does he deserve a listening or its just another drunk crying hoarse on seeing a foreigner.....these people have no understanding how much revenue us immigrants are generating and how invaluable our contribution is for the finnish economy...Instead of being grateful,he chooses to be bitchy...as usual

Immigration is a two way process....Not only the immigrant has to change but the country also has to bend in order to adapt to the needs of immigration...don't go on making the immigrant wholly responsible for effective transition to the local environment...If the immigrant fails to effectively integrate into the society,then it would not be only his/her loss,but would also be a loss to the society and to the country itself...and if you would choose to continuosly ignore this fact ingrates,then in the end finns and finland would end up being the losers...
Remember:As much as an immigrant need finland,its Finland which desperatel needs immigrants...Your government has been going around places to attract immigrants,requesting them to ´make finland their home so that they could bring in their skills ,ideas and direly needed labor to help sustanin the finnish economy...

By the way,when you talk about crime and unemployment amongst foreigners,its mostly the refugees who make the bulk of the percentage...citing them as troublemakers and holding them responsible for creating the bad image of foreigners while discounting the achievements of other hardworking immigrants is being totally ignorant,ingrateful and disrespectful for all the contribution they have made...And going by your logic of 20%,then I could safely say that all finns are drunk and sociopaths, who go around armed with kitchen knives and riding cycles for hours hunting for a possible victim to kill just for the sake of fun...now what kind of image that would create of local finns???
but if I am to believe in your logic of 20%,then there wouldn't be any difference between you and me and I sincerely wish not to stoop down to your level under any circumstances...
As Karhunkoski has pointed out earlier that finns are not yet ready to embrace immigration with all their hearts and i second that...there is still a feeling of iron curtain amongst them... Some Finns like everything Global but when it comes to them,they are rigidly Local....An irony in itself..

I completely agree with you.

[Tiwaz]

Yah its a free country and finns have all the rights to think the way they want...but the question is: is it really beneficial for Finland ? Is there any logic in their anti immigration thinking?Are they being justified in their repulsive outlook to immigration by being zealously patriotic abd ignoring the long term benefits that immigration can bring about?...Besides,can they even afford to persist with this kind of attitude considering that Finland has one of the oldest population in the world?How will the country manage to pay for the pension and other social benefits if there aren't enough finns working to pay taxes?

How the finnish economy would survive if it listens to people like tiswas...it would be a nightmare...now tiswas can think and yell whatever he wants but the point is-does he deserve a listening or its just another drunk crying hoarse on seeing a foreigner.....these people have no understanding how much revenue us immigrants are generating and how invaluable our contribution is for the finnish economy...Instead of being grateful,he chooses to be bitchy...as usual

How much tax money unemployed immigrants doing crime create? Hmm?
20% of them fails to get a job. They fail to integrate. They do NOT fail to commit crime on disproportionate amount.

There are more than enough finns to do all the jobs, or have you perchance missed unemployment rates around 6-7%?

Once that is around 3-4% we might start to worry about needing workers. Once it is 1-2% we have urgent need. Until then, it is better to use resources we have instead of inviting more immigrants to demand changes to our nation and culture.

Immigration is a two way process....Not only the immigrant has to change but the country also has to bend in order to adapt to the needs of immigration...don't go on making the immigrant wholly responsible for effective transition to the local environment...If the immigrant fails to effectively integrate into the society,then it would not be only his/her loss,but would also be a loss to the society and to the country itself...and if you would choose to continuosly ignore this fact ingrates,then in the end finns and finland would end up being the losers...
Remember:As much as an immigrant need finland,its Finland which desperatel needs immigrants...Your government has been going around places to attract immigrants,requesting them to ´make finland their home so that they could bring in their skills ,ideas and direly needed labor to help sustanin the finnish economy...

Typical speak of an immigrant. "You guys really should change your native land to suit my gilded arse better."

Society in reality does not lose anything. There are plenty of people willing to move to Finland to integrate and be productive. We CAN afford to cherrypick, if only our politicians had balls to enforce more strict system.

When you move to other country, it is not country which has to change. Change must be 100% in you.

Else you become bitchy, whining immigrant like deboarse.

By the way,when you talk about crime and unemployment amongst foreigners,its mostly the refugees who make the bulk of the percentage...citing them as troublemakers and holding them responsible for creating the bad image of foreigners while discounting the achievements of other hardworking immigrants is being totally ignorant,ingrateful and disrespectful for all the contribution they have made...And going by your logic of 20%,then I could safely say that all finns are drunk and sociopaths, who go around armed with kitchen knives and riding cycles for hours hunting for a possible victim to kill just for the sake of fun...now what kind of image that would create of local finns???

Out of 5 million 1 guy is around what. Less than one promille?

20% is one in five.

As for being grateful. I am not grateful for someone doing their work. It just shows your giltarsed attitude that finns should be GRATEFUL that some great, civilized immigrant deigns themselves to work.

No, we EXPECT you to work. If you do, great. You fulfill your part. We are not grateful, but we do not dislike you like we dislike unintegrated, whining and possibly unemployed leeches and immigrants.

Respect must be earned, immigrant should start by respecting culture, language and society of country they immigrate to.

but if I am to believe in your logic of 20%,then there wouldn't be any difference between you and me and I sincerely wish not to stoop down to your level under any circumstances...
As Karhunkoski has pointed out earlier that finns are not yet ready to embrace immigration with all their hearts and i second that...there is still a feeling of iron curtain amongst them... Some Finns like everything Global but when it comes to them,they are rigidly Local....An irony in itself..

Actually, finns are smarter than idiots down south in this. Letting immigrants start to force their view and culture to you is ruinous to your society, culture and nation.

Of course, deboarse here does not care. He is immigrant, to him Finland can change and it doesn't do anything to him. Hell, there could be sharia law implemented tomorrow and he would barely flinch.

He is not native in short. Lacks connection to country, culture and language. He would be willing to trash them all without second thought.

[Karhunkoski]

There are more than enough finns to do all the jobs, or have you perchance missed unemployment rates around 6-7%?
Once that is around 3-4% we might start to worry about needing workers. Once it is 1-2% we have urgent need. Until then, it is better to use resources we have instead of inviting more immigrants to demand changes to our nation and culture.

Yup, I see them sitting around the bus/station, counting out a few coins for another trip to Alko

But seriously, there is a small hole in this particular statement of yours. You see, in any economy there are always a small % of "unemployable" people, people suitable for no work at all. You also always have a certain % of people who are in transition between jobs (between contracts). Add in various other groups of seasonal workers and those with temporary health issues, etc, etc, etc., and soon you are at x% unemployed. So really there aren't enough workers, and this situation will only worsen as baby boomers start to retire

[Tiwaz]

However, this percentage of unemployed is lower than 6%.

It is there somewhere close to 4%. Which means we still have excess of people looking for work.

Furthermore, our government likes to fix the statistics by not defining people in useless courses as not unemployed.

Toss enough to deadend courses or temporary jobs with government funding and you make things so much easier.


In the end, all this does not change fact that lots of immigrants still are impossible to employ. Majority of jobs tends to require customer contact or other use of finnish. There just aren't that much jobs where you are totally insulated from finnish society so that unintegrated immigrant can perform those tasks.

So, importing workforce is not going to solve that problem. Not to mention that getting in unintegratign immigrants is bad policy in long term. Look at Germany.

Gastarbaiters were hauled in by loads at one point to solve the "shortage". Shortage disappeared, immigrants did not. Now they have lots of turks and muslims in general in their hands and problems from them. Though at far lower level than France. Who also got lots of immigrants to fix "shortage". Again shortage disappeared in a while but immigrants did not.

Solutions to any real or perceived shortage must not be to make it easier to come to Finland. Solutions must first be found to problem where immigrants just do not integrate. Once we have solution to, by force of some kind if necessary, to make sure that immigrants also integreate to Finland (not Finland trying to adapt to immigrants which is always the wrong answer but of course preferred by immigrants).

Then there could be slow and controlled intake of more immigrants.

[Karhunkoski]

Finland ahs to face the facts Tiwas. This is the OECD speaking, not the Finnish government trying to pull the wool over anyones' eyes:

Accessing foreign workers is one way in which Finland can tackle the challenge of a rapidly declining labour force and address emerging skill shortages. While successive governments have proposed tapping into the international labour market, there has been little progress. The number of immigrants remains relatively low and the employment rate of the current stock of immigrants is significantly lower than that for the whole population. More should be done to promote language and vocational training for foreign-born residents, encourage diversity in the workplace and assist firms in attracting foreign workers with the right skills.

Immigration numbers are low but more could be done to target migrants for some areas of skill shortages

While immigration has traditionally been low – particularly work-related immigration – a growing number of Finnish firms are facing skill shortages and are looking to recruit labour abroad. However, there remain a number of obstacles to attracting skilled migrants to Finland, particularly now that many other countries are competing to attract workers from the same sources, notably central and eastern Europe. The government should do more to identify those sectors that could most benefit from migrant labour and provide assistance to firms (especially smaller firms) that are competing to attract these workers, such as by co-sponsoring employment fairs in source countries. The government should also provide more resources for educating and training migrant workers to smooth their transition into the Finnish workforce.

Source> OECD Economic Survey of Finland, June 2008.


- There will be a shortage of workers, paying taxes to pay our pensions. Finland needs immigrants to fill the gap
- Finland is in competition with other areas in Europe to collect these immigrants
- Despite Finns' love of Finland and all things Finnish, Finland isn't high on the priority list of bright young, skilled immigrants.
- Finland needs to do more to get the right people!

[catchmeifucan]

However, this percentage of unemployed is lower than 6%.

It is there somewhere close to 4%. Which means we still have excess of people looking for work.

Furthermore, our government likes to fix the statistics by not defining people in useless courses as not unemployed.

Toss enough to deadend courses or temporary jobs with government funding and you make things so much easier.


In the end, all this does not change fact that lots of immigrants still are impossible to employ. Majority of jobs tends to require customer contact or other use of finnish. There just aren't that much jobs where you are totally insulated from finnish society so that unintegrated immigrant can perform those tasks.

So, importing workforce is not going to solve that problem. Not to mention that getting in unintegratign immigrants is bad policy in long term. Look at Germany.

Gastarbaiters were hauled in by loads at one point to solve the "shortage". Shortage disappeared, immigrants did not. Now they have lots of turks and muslims in general in their hands and problems from them. Though at far lower level than France. Who also got lots of immigrants to fix "shortage". Again shortage disappeared in a while but immigrants did not.

Solutions to any real or perceived shortage must not be to make it easier to come to Finland. Solutions must first be found to problem where immigrants just do not integrate. Once we have solution to, by force of some kind if necessary, to make sure that immigrants also integreate to Finland (not Finland trying to adapt to immigrants which is always the wrong answer but of course preferred by immigrants).

Then there could be slow and controlled intake of more immigrants.

You have some practical points but, you fail to understand that
1. Immigrants are not some tissue paper which you use and toss into the bin. Though your thoughts are exactly are same.
2. Some of them do try to integrate. Some also live in a box which protects them from the unfriendly surrounding.
3. You dislike foreigners but, like billions of euros in profits from foreign countries. I say that's human.
4. What is happening is globalization and it is a two way thing.
5. The problem is created by the ill managed policies of the goverment on immigration. Don't blame it on the hard working immigrants. They even don't want your appreciation also.

[rinso]

Finland needs more immigrants to pay for our pensions

This is a misconception. First the money needs to be generated (resources) and than through labour and tax it is redistributed. If there are to little resources to generate the money, there will be a problem, no matter how many tax payers there are.
The workforce we need is related to the available resources, not to the pension demands.

[Tiwaz]

You have some practical points but, you fail to understand that
1. Immigrants are not some tissue paper which you use and toss into the bin. Though your thoughts are exactly are same.
2. Some of them do try to integrate. Some also live in a box which protects them from the unfriendly surrounding.
3. You dislike foreigners but, like billions of euros in profits from foreign countries. I say that's human.
4. What is happening is globalization and it is a two way thing.
5. The problem is created by the ill managed policies of the goverment on immigration. Don't blame it on the hard working immigrants. They even don't want your appreciation also.

Now, you have to understand something.

This is Finland. This is my home. Place of birth. Place of birth for my father, my mother, their fathers and mothers and so forth.

This is my culture. The good and the bad. All of it. And my language. As strange and impossible to understand it might be to rest of the world.

And I want it to stay that way. It is sentiment very much shared by finns. I do not hate foreigners. Nor everything foreign. But to protect this place I love very much from turning to another UK, France or Germany... There have to be precautions and steps taken to make certain immigrants do not become problem like they have in those countries.

Of course immigrant is not tissue to use and throw away. But taking in immigrants who fail to integrate is route to internal instability as they try to force THEIR culture in MY home. That is mistake of France and Germany. They took in the immigrants, but did not force them to integrate. Now they have problems.

Think of it as a house. You may go to house of your friend freely, but you do not start demanding things to be done your way in there.

If immigrants are to come to Finland, they must be made to integrate. No exceptions. We have 5 million people here. We cannot afford to have our culture, country and language invaded by one million immigrants who refuse to accept our way in our country. It is unlikely we can afford even half of that amount.

Nobody else will protect our culture, society and language if not us finns, as we see from attitude of beararse here.
So, to keep our country place we can call home, we must make sure those who move in accept the rules and play by them.

Beararse here thinks that if Finland does not get lots of immigrants and appease them by bending over backwards (no surprise such attitude coming from immigrant) it will be horrible.

Not really. Things balance themselves out. It might be rough for a while, but eventually things turn for better. And we would still have Finland as finnish.
Losing our national identity, culture and language is not worth avoiding minor economical setback. And that is what unintegrated immigrants mean.

[Karhunkoski]

Finland needs more immigrants to pay for our pensions

This is a misconception. First the money needs to be generated (resources) and than through labour and tax it is redistributed. If there are to little resources to generate the money, there will be a problem, no matter how many tax payers there are.

I see the point, however if there are job vacancies and nobody to fill them, then the vacancies fade elsewhere in the world, and no tax revenue for Finland

[Karhunkoski]

[
Think of it as a house. You may go to house of your friend freely, but you do not start demanding things to be done your way in there.

Very true, although at the same time if I visit a friends house, and sit watching him drink coffee whilst offering me none, perhaps even looking at me like a piece of poo, perhaps always wanting the TV channel on exactly the one of his choosing, then perhaps I won't want to visit anymore

Beararse here thinks that if Finland does not get lots of immigrants and appease them by bending over backwards (no surprise such attitude coming from immigrant) it will be horrible.

Actually no Tiswas, that's not my opinion at all. If you read earlier, I even suggested that the main thing I have against immigration is that I just don't think Finns are ready for it. But if it does NEED to happen, then it must be done properly.

And thanks for calling me an "immigrant" May I also add that this immigrant was baptised by a Finnish priest, holds a Finnish Passport and has been in and out of Finland for nearly 40 years. This puts me in the position of being knowledgeable about Finnish culture, and, unlike your good self, rather knowledgeable about some others

[Tiwaz]

And, you still talk like immigrant. Putting no interest in how finnish society would suffer from unintegrated immigrants.

We have evidence abroad on how such stupidity turns out to be bad mistake in long term. Why oh why you want to repeat that mistake?

Tell me then, how to make immigration work right?