opinions needed

Learn and discuss the Finnish language with Finn's and foreigners alike
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merenneito
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:36 pm

opinions needed

Post by merenneito » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:51 am

Arvoisat foorumilaiset...I'm trying to help my friend learn some finnish and I'd like to ask you the following questions:

1. At what point of your studies did you learn to use lempi-/mieli-/herkku- etc.. (lempimusa, mielikarkki, herkkuruoka)?

2. If I talk "kirjakieli" with my friend, she will understand better, but should I try to use the spoken finnish anyway, since everyone else will use that with her? To make things worse my dialect is from Helsinki and she lives in Pohjanmaa.. :D

3. Just out of curiosity...what words in finnish language, that can't be said with one word/as easily in your own language, do you find especially useful?



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Jukka Aho
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Re: opinions needed

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:45 am

merenneito wrote:2. If I talk "kirjakieli" with my friend, she will understand better, but should I try to use the spoken finnish anyway, since everyone else will use that with her? To make things worse my dialect is from Helsinki and she lives in Pohjanmaa.. :D
Spoken Finnish is a continuum which ranges from highly dialectal and local forms of speech to the neutral yleiskieli used by the TV hosts/announcers. Often when two speakers from different parts of the country meet and engage a conversation they will both hold back their local dialect a bit: trying to use more “neutral” words and expressions than they would in their local environment, toning down their tendency of pronouncing some words in a dialectal way, and shifting towards the (informal) forms of language heard on the TV and on the radio.

To get an idea of “neutral” spoken Finnish (which is at the same time informal in its style, as opposed to “stuffy” or “formal” or “book language”), try listening to the Finnish radio DJs on the music channels (YleX, Radio Nova, etc.) Although many of them come from the capital area and do have some Helsinki-isms in their speech, they’re trying to keep them at bay most of the time.

Of course there are also some speakers who do not change their language one bit even if it makes it difficult for others to understand them, and regardless of what the occasion or the audience might be. It is sometimes hard to say whether this is an issue of “principals” (stubborn pig-headed resistance towards anything that might dilute your “local values”, origins, family background, and tradition), a conscious try to proudly emphasize the value of dialects and encourage their use and preservation in daily life (by setting an example), or just a demonstration of a lack of social and practical skills at reading the situation and switching between the different forms of language as needed.
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Jukka Aho
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Re: opinions needed

Post by Jukka Aho » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:17 pm

David Rönnqvist wrote:I am still in the early stages of learning Finnish, but my Finnish cousin has emphasised to me the need to learn proper colloquial Finnish and speak that by preference. He told me the language has moved on.
Moved on... from what? :) I’d argue it’s not really a case of having an “historical”, older form of the language for literary uses and a younger, fresher spoken variant that has “moved on” from that, if that’s what he meant.

The standard written Finnish was a somewhat artificial construction (separate from spoken language) right from the beginning. It was consciously developed by Agricola, Lönnrot, et al by choosing certain select elements from different dialects and rejecting the others, preferring certain sentence structures that are handy in writing but sound awkward when spoken, theorizing about certain grammatical or morphological structures that might not have been really used in speech after all, and even inventing new words on the spot as needed.
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DMC
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Re: opinions needed

Post by DMC » Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:46 pm

My latest failed attempt to learn Finnish was on a course where the teacher tried to explain both written and spoken forms of the language. Is that a new trend in language teaching? I hadn't encountered it before, and didn't find it particularly useful. If anything it was confusing, but to single that out as a confusing factor would be misleading given my persistent lack of progress over many years.

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Timbeh
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Re: opinions needed

Post by Timbeh » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:22 pm

merenneito wrote:To make things worse my dialect is from Helsinki and she lives in Pohjanmaa
Helsinkians don't really have an actual dialect. It's just nasal intonation and bad grammar. :P
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mrjimsfc
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Re: opinions needed

Post by mrjimsfc » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:22 pm

David Rönnqvist wrote:He told me the language has moved on. Apparently most foreigners in Helsinki he has met speak the formal Finnish and as a result cannot understand most Finns!

Note that he did not say that the Finns cannot understand the foreigners! Finnish has "moved on" much the same as English has "moved on" to American and then to Eubonics ("English" spoken by poorly educated Blacks in America). It's not that the language has changed but the abilities of lesser educated or uneducated people to speak the language properly have shifted downward dramatically. Witness the difference between listening to the Queen speak and listening to a lowlife stumbling out of a pub in the poorer sections of London. Just as dramatic, listen to Pesident Obama speak and compare it to American Eubonics. This is called moving on?
Socialism has never managed to create anything beyond corpses, poverty and oppression.

AldenG
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Re: opinions needed

Post by AldenG » Thu May 07, 2009 5:55 am

Over here it's called "Ebonics," from "ebony." When I saw "Eubonics," I first accepted it as a new word referring to a similar but separate infiltration to Europe of black dialects. In case anyone still wonders, Ebonics is a pejorative term.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Pursuivant
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Re: opinions needed

Post by Pursuivant » Thu May 07, 2009 8:59 am

Jukka Aho wrote:Although many of them come from the capital area and do have some Helsinki-isms in their speech, they’re trying to keep them at bay most of the time.
Except on the local when you get "slangiuutiset" - which I find hilarious... some words are on the spot but some sound "off" but its one generation older than mine.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

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Pursuivant
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Re: opinions needed

Post by Pursuivant » Thu May 07, 2009 9:01 am

So, if there is Ebonics, does the white trailer trash then speak Ivorics?
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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