In the UK its working, middle and upper class. Im sure its the same in Finland and every where else. But how is it worked out in Finnland? What salary would you have to earn to be in each of them classes of social?
cheers
Social Class
Social Class
I was wondering how different social classes are defined in Finland?
In the UK its working, middle and upper class. Im sure its the same in Finland and every where else. But how is it worked out in Finnland? What salary would you have to earn to be in each of them classes of social?
cheers
In the UK its working, middle and upper class. Im sure its the same in Finland and every where else. But how is it worked out in Finnland? What salary would you have to earn to be in each of them classes of social?
cheers
Re: Social Class
A plumber may earn more than a doctor.
Re: Social Class
And lawyer should too. If he doesn't, he goes and kidnaps heiress...EP wrote:A plumber may earn more than a doctor.
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Pursuivant
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Re: Social Class
Theres kind of three systems of classification... but all of these have more or less faded away...
Theres the country vs. city... modern times theres not as strict if you own land you are somewhat higher status than someone working as a hired hand. Back in the turn of last century you had Husbands, Crofters, Hands, and Parasites... Of course then the "gentry" which included people with education, the priest, the teacher, the vet, the doctor... who weren't counted into the "parasites" which could include the cobbler or a smith if they were itinerant workers.
Most evident social class distinction is your education. It used to be back in the day only rich people could afford to educate their kids, and its still a bit of of a social distinctor if you are academically educated or "amis". So like I live in a bit posh "council project" with a lot of proles and theres a pecking order of "architecht" and "engineer" vs. the "lather" even though they sit in the same table swigging beer as they're "local". I can say I'm from a very working-class backround; my grandparents were a stevedore, a maid, and two foundry workers (yes nan too). My ma worked in a factory and my da was a car mechanic. He actually got two of his three kids through high school and college so his "social status" got higher. In the countryside my ex-mil wore the "laurels" on graduation day to show she had raised two kids who had gotten through matriculation - a bit like wearing medals. So education is I think something that the older generation at least regards as important. But I wouldn't say the modern youth pay as much attention to this, maybe its that money is what defines you but say artists and such have a higher status even they might be poor.
And then there is "old money" and the "bättrefolk" of the "old names" even nobility isn't functioning at any official recognition.
Theres the country vs. city... modern times theres not as strict if you own land you are somewhat higher status than someone working as a hired hand. Back in the turn of last century you had Husbands, Crofters, Hands, and Parasites... Of course then the "gentry" which included people with education, the priest, the teacher, the vet, the doctor... who weren't counted into the "parasites" which could include the cobbler or a smith if they were itinerant workers.
Most evident social class distinction is your education. It used to be back in the day only rich people could afford to educate their kids, and its still a bit of of a social distinctor if you are academically educated or "amis". So like I live in a bit posh "council project" with a lot of proles and theres a pecking order of "architecht" and "engineer" vs. the "lather" even though they sit in the same table swigging beer as they're "local". I can say I'm from a very working-class backround; my grandparents were a stevedore, a maid, and two foundry workers (yes nan too). My ma worked in a factory and my da was a car mechanic. He actually got two of his three kids through high school and college so his "social status" got higher. In the countryside my ex-mil wore the "laurels" on graduation day to show she had raised two kids who had gotten through matriculation - a bit like wearing medals. So education is I think something that the older generation at least regards as important. But I wouldn't say the modern youth pay as much attention to this, maybe its that money is what defines you but say artists and such have a higher status even they might be poor.
And then there is "old money" and the "bättrefolk" of the "old names" even nobility isn't functioning at any official recognition.
Last edited by Pursuivant on Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Social Class
h1_hsr wrote: What salary would you have to earn to be in each of them classes of social?
Even in the UK salary has nought to do with class. Many/most "upper class" people don't earn a salary at all.
I'm not sure it has a lot to do with education anymore either (in the UK), since big bucks will buy almost anyone a good education.
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Karhunkoski
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Re: Social Class
Well teachers in Finland always used to have a certain "standing" in society, which I always found rather odd. I always found the less-able students aimed for the lifelong classroom.
Out in the countryside the juntti set will tell you that the only three worthy professions are farmer, lawyer and doctor. But when you're a narrow-minded straw-chewer, who spends half their life standing in animal excrement, you don't get to meet so many other professions.
I was always brought up to think that Finland was a relatively classless society, but of course it isn't. Yes most people are pressed into the general middle area of the class system through social benefits and a punitive tax system, but there is still a huge difference between top and bottom, I see it manifested in level of manners and general conduct when among others. You can't polish a turn, no matter how hard they try.
But back to your original question, "how are social classes defined?".... well in Finland there is still an obsession with your educational achievement, whether you're an insonoori or kandidaatti. Finns like to put people in pigeon holes, so everything is clear and everyone knows where they stand. At least in my thinking, education level still has a strong effect on defining "class".
(Cur a FF regular to retell an isolated example where the MD was best drinking buddies with the office cleaner
)
Out in the countryside the juntti set will tell you that the only three worthy professions are farmer, lawyer and doctor. But when you're a narrow-minded straw-chewer, who spends half their life standing in animal excrement, you don't get to meet so many other professions.
I was always brought up to think that Finland was a relatively classless society, but of course it isn't. Yes most people are pressed into the general middle area of the class system through social benefits and a punitive tax system, but there is still a huge difference between top and bottom, I see it manifested in level of manners and general conduct when among others. You can't polish a turn, no matter how hard they try.
But back to your original question, "how are social classes defined?".... well in Finland there is still an obsession with your educational achievement, whether you're an insonoori or kandidaatti. Finns like to put people in pigeon holes, so everything is clear and everyone knows where they stand. At least in my thinking, education level still has a strong effect on defining "class".
(Cur a FF regular to retell an isolated example where the MD was best drinking buddies with the office cleaner
)Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Re: Social Class
Thanks for your replies, very interesting to read to find out other peoples thoughts about this.
In the UK, I would say it is worked out by:
1, Education
2, Where you work and at what poistion
3, Salary
4, Where you live
But also these days i think it seems to kind of include other little things for example cars and how new it is, designer lables etc..
Also in the UK I feel there is different level of classes in each class. mainly in the middle and upper class. So for example Lower middle class, middle middle class, upper middle and so forth with upper class.
In the UK, I would say it is worked out by:
1, Education
2, Where you work and at what poistion
3, Salary
4, Where you live
But also these days i think it seems to kind of include other little things for example cars and how new it is, designer lables etc..
Also in the UK I feel there is different level of classes in each class. mainly in the middle and upper class. So for example Lower middle class, middle middle class, upper middle and so forth with upper class.
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Karhunkoski
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Re: Social Class
Plus in both countries, people will speak "proper" in certain situations. At least in the UK some people will try to speak more "properly" to appear "better people".
Political correctness is the belief that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
Re: Social Class
There's this thing in the UK called "breeding". It is (IMO) still quite difficult to BECOME upper class either through education, work, salary or your post code if you ain't well-bred. A very good education, then a great job, with a desirable residence and even golf club membership won't get you in, but it helps. Marriage is of course, the fast track.h1_hsr wrote:Thanks for your replies, very interesting to read to find out other peoples thoughts about this.
In the UK, I would say it is worked out by:
1, Education
2, Where you work and at what poistion
3, Salary
4, Where you live
OTOH, the well-bred seem to be able to hang on to their class even if they are effectively penniless, drive a 1970s Rover and live in Travelodges.
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TampereOwl
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Re: Social Class
Exactly. None of those things are as important as your parents and upbringing in the UK.penelope wrote:There's this thing in the UK called "breeding". It is (IMO) still quite difficult to BECOME upper class either through education, work, salary or your post code if you ain't well-bred. A very good education, then a great job, with a desirable residence and even golf club membership won't get you in, but it helps. Marriage is of course, the fast track.h1_hsr wrote:Thanks for your replies, very interesting to read to find out other peoples thoughts about this.
In the UK, I would say it is worked out by:
1, Education
2, Where you work and at what poistion
3, Salary
4, Where you live
OTOH, the well-bred seem to be able to hang on to their class even if they are effectively penniless, drive a 1970s Rover and live in Travelodges.
very different in finland, and it's only communists like Hank that seem to talk about it (and experts like brits, of course).
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Bubba Elvis XIV
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Re: Social Class
That would be about status....not specifically class.h1_hsr wrote:
In the UK, I would say it is worked out by:
1, Education
2, Where you work and at what poistion
3, Salary
4, Where you live
I agree with Penelope and T.Owl. Mate of mine...lives in a big old house, has a really 'posh' name, parents have some titles...he always bumming fags and they don't have a penny to their name. Last time I spoke to him his dad was unemployed (maybe on the dole).
You missed the underclassh1_hsr wrote:Also in the UK I feel there is different level of classes in each class. mainly in the middle and upper class. So for example Lower middle class, middle middle class, upper middle and so forth with upper class.
...but yeah, classes aren't simply divided into the working, middle and upper classes anymore. It's far more complex than that. Those definitions don't work anymore.Black Flag kills ants on contact
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Bubba Elvis XIV
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Re: Social Class
Here is certain respect towards priests and teachers but i wouldnt talk about class. I talk about northern finland tho, in south there seems to be some people who believe classes.
For example there was "high class" southern guy, after few black eyes he learned that he isnt that special
Matt 23:12 And whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
For example there was "high class" southern guy, after few black eyes he learned that he isnt that special
Matt 23:12 And whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum
Re: Social Class
Classes are so 1950ísh. Classes started to disappear in 1960s when state started to guarantee peoples study loans. People no longer needed rich relatives or parents to get a bank loan for university or other education. Later of course came study money that you don´t have to pay back. And because Finland´s salary levels are very even (too even some might think) there are very little "better" areas or "bad" areas to live.
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TampereOwl
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Re: Social Class
that's certainly the official view, but parents' income and ability to rely on family loans still affect things.EP wrote:Classes are so 1950ísh. Classes started to disappear in 1960s when state started to guarantee peoples study loans. People no longer needed rich relatives or parents to get a bank loan for university or other education. Later of course came study money that you don´t have to pay back. And because Finland´s salary levels are very even (too even some might think) there are very little "better" areas or "bad" areas to live.
They also affect which football club you (or your kids) play for, at least in Tampere.