How long does it take to attain fluency in Finnish?

deojuvame · Post by **deojuvame** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 6:55 pm

Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it would take to become fluent in Finnish?

It would also be interesting to share how long you've been studying in Finland, and your own personal fluency levels in Finnish.

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stig · Post by **stig** » Tue Apr 20, 2004 9:37 pm

I think I speak with a certain amount of authority when I say;

Approximately 3 months if you have a good teacher.

Stig.

No.6 · Post by **No.6** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:32 am

Finland is one of those unfortunate countries where if you want one can survive using only English forever, so learning Finnish is more a question of will power.
I have seen plenty of foreigners from "less developed countries" learn to speak Finnish reasonably fluently in a couple of years in order to apsire to integration, so that was my benchmark.
Kaiken lisäksi, why should Finns think only *they* have a right to speak a foreign language badly

Make · Post by **Make** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:26 am

stig wrote:I think I speak with a certain amount of authority when I say;

Approximately 3 months if you have a good teacher.

Stig.

I hope reading that article will get me on the way, but if I will get fluent by it??
I'm sure I will have a proper understanding of Finnish in 3 months.

When I'm moving to Finland I will absolutely take a proper course to get a sort of kickstart...

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:59 am

There too many variable in the equation to be able to give a very precise time scale.
Some of these variables are not within ones control..
e.g. Age..it is fact that younger people learn a new language quicker than old dogs like myself.
BAT has been here two years and I have been here nearly 10..I know a lot more words but her pronunciation is infinitely better than mine. In the Pub the locals smile and nod approval at her Finnish..they screw their faces up and show signs of strain when trying to understand mine...Ear/brain link get clogged up as one gets older. My Finnish friends are getting used to my bad habbits..shortening long vowels.or.lengthening word endings to add effect..which is just not done in Finnish

Gets a few laughs though....Hank has been known to spit his beer out on more than one occasion when I have made yet another miss-pronuciation.
Latest was to ask..oletko yksi nainen instead of oletko yksinäinen.

Finnish is a language where one must have a good ear so I think if you are a musicain you would have good a good advantage.

Perserverance and will power and a real need/desire to learn are also needed. It is too easy to switch into English..try not to, it is better to try and make a mistake and have it corrected than not to try.
I certainly remember all of my best pronunciation errors..I am not allowed to forget them..Kiitos Hank!

Oletko panimossa tai panimassa tänään?

Niall Shaky · Post by **Niall Shaky** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 10:27 am

Let's re-state the obvious: Finnish is damn difficult. In Denmark it took me about 18 months to get to the level where I could work and socialize exclusively in Danish. That's what I call fluent. I would say 75% of the foreigners I knew had a similar fluency in Danish. And Danes in general speak better English than Finns.

I've never met a native English speaker who spoke fluent Finnish. I've met a couple of people who claimed to speak it, but were full of crap. I've met one person who I assume speaks excellent Finnish, but I've never personally heard him speak much of it. I've heard of one American, working for Nokia who speaks excellent Finnish, but I've never met him. I met a Japanese guy in Salo once who was totally fluent.

Russians, Estonians, Somalis all seem to do very well.

Typically native English speakers come to Finland and initially try hard to learn the language.

After about three years one of two things happen:

1) They acquire Finnish adequate for survival needs and find a comfortbale niche that doesn't require absolutely fluent Finnish such as teaching english or working for an international company, typically living with a spouse who speaks excellent English

2) They go back home

Whichever way, 3 years is not long enough to get fluent in Finnish, unless you are gifted, and then by the end of that period the need to learn it is gone due to either (1) or (2).

I assume that the people who learn fluent Finnish don't have the opportunity to find a niche as in (1) and have some big reason why they can't do (2).

I am definitely in Group (1) by the way. I have noticed in the past year that my Finnish has plateaued completely. I can get by in shops and situations like that. I don't feel particularly left out when Finns start talking Finnish because I understand a fair proportion of what is going on.

But I just don't see it going anywhere. I could stay at this level indefinitely. Depressing.

(Should explain that I am at home with flu at the moment thus not on top form)

deeplymauritius · Post by **deeplymauritius** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:53 pm

as I have only been in finland for 3 weeks, I am quite interested in the whole, 'how long will it take debate'. I am fortunate enough to be quite good at languages through 2 gifts, a good ear and ability to replicate sounds and a good memory, especially for 'strange' or 'nice-in-the-mouth' words. I have beem selflearning for some time (almost a year off and on). This was/has been really hard - being in england was a distinct disadvantage as the only person I could really practice with was my wife. This quite nice and she helped a lot but obviously she was familiar with what I had learnt, my accent etc. but for getting the basics it was great. I was kind of lulled into a false sense of security at this point (even though she pointed out my folly) that I was progressing quite quickly by using books like 'teach yourself finnish' terty lenney. Having arrived in finland i have def been convinced of the need to be very systematic when it comes to grammar, esp cases if one doesn't want to be stuck with situational finnish but no conversational-inducing fluency!!!

Started a speaking class yesterday and I was !"#¤% scared, still not used to the sound of me speaking finnish. Hopefully my confidence will be back up for this afts session

so, how long, I reckon another yr and I will be workably conversational

Michael

gavin · Post by **gavin** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:24 pm

Niall Shaky wrote:But I just don't see it going anywhere. I could stay at this level indefinitely. Depressing.

Sounds like we are around the same level. I first came to Finland 9 years ago, and have been with Mari ever sinse, so you would think I'd be getting on fluent by now...

The reasons (excuses) I have are

- It's too painful (in terms of blood loss) to speak/learn Finnish with Mari
- For big extended chunks of the past 9 years, we have been living in other countries, grappling with other languages (Russia, Argentina etc etc)
- My mind works on a technical (mechanical) level, but I start dribbling and eating paste when it comes to languages.

This has been leading me to consider what I should do about it. I've tried a platheora of books/CD's videos and all that (but I never seem to be 'in the mood'). I've tried the weekly lessons, but progress was so slow, and the skill levells of the others was so varying, that we rarely made any progress. I looked into private intensive lessons, and the price made me change my underwear.

Actually, where I learned 80% of all the Finnish I know today was when I worked for 6 weeks with an all Finnish team, none of whom could understand or speak a word of English. Sink or swim. So I swam. It's a real pity that this is a rare situation (as most Finns do at least understand English)

I have even been looking into the prospect of taking a few months away from work to do an intensive Finnish course, to try and break off that plateau you mentioned. I also wondered if there might be some funding to cover the costs (some sort of integration assistance for foreign entrepeneurs... [yeah, right. Too much to ask for]) especially since my business is not new and I've been here a couple of years already, and certianly don't get any state benefits´, oh and I don't live in Helsinki.

I will be looking about later this week, and will post anything I find, just in case someone else is interested.

Of course perhaps this is a project that . ry should be seeking EU/Finnish government funding for organising. If there is a need, and a gap in the market, project work can be very lucrative. A lot of red tape, but all the same: Raha.

Cheers
Gavin

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:30 pm

One small tip..it is all about self confidence...
Think about it the other way around..Finns are very nervous to speak English..even if they are reasonably competant.. I have asked many times why?... reason..."They dont like to make a mistake in front of stangers..!"..
That last word is the clue..they dont mind trying in front of friends...
Same applies to foriegners in Finland.."you dont mind trying to speak Finnish with you partner or any good friend who is Finnish!"

So the trick is get lots of Finnish Speaking friends who dont speak English..and have a go!
I have said many times that the best Finnish Language school is a bar full of friendly non English speaking people and one thirsty Brit...

deojuvame · Post by **deojuvame** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:07 pm

PeterF wrote:There too many variable in the equation to be able to give a very precise time scale.
Some of these variables are not within ones control..

Yeah, I know, it occurred to me when I was making the poll how many variables there could be. But integrating that into a poll with one question would be a little bit tricky

And I think people have been really great in the respnses of trying to describe how many variables there can be.

But if you had the choice between, for example, talking about details of your favorite recipe in English, or opening your mouth and announcing, "Me like food" in Finnish, which one would you pick?

That said, I almost never use Finnish unless I'm speaking with someone who doesn't speak English. Me like not sounding like 2 year old!

mrjimsfc · Post by **mrjimsfc** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:04 pm

gavin wrote: I have even been looking into the prospect of taking a few months away from work to do an intensive Finnish course, to try and break off that plateau you mentioned. I also wondered if there might be some funding to cover the costs (some sort of integration assistance for foreign entrepeneurs... [yeah, right. Too much to ask for]) especially since my business is not new and I've been here a couple of years already, and certianly don't get any state benefits´, oh and I don't live in Helsinki.

Try taking the CIMOsummer courses offered in cities like Kuopio, Jyväskylä or Savonlinna.

Jim

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Gonzo · Post by **Gonzo** » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:47 pm

I like this discussion.

I've been here for going on two years and my Finnish is still pretty sh!te. I like it when my family visits and I can pretend I know Finnish by saying pointless little phrases in shops and suchlike, but generally there is more room for improvement than you can shake a stick at!

My poor suffering wife never wants to speak Finnish with me! Its slow, stupid and boring, she tells me. Er, just like when I'm speaking English then?

If I can give one piece of advice, its to go out and make a fool of yourself in front of strangers. That's how I really learn new words, phrases and grammer. I tell my wife later what I have said, she laughs her head off, I vow never to go back to the same shop/hairdresser/post office and I learn a bit more Finnish!

arabella wrote:...Me like food...

Me like food too!

Mutta en pidä mämmista! Useful in any situation.

deeplymauritius · Post by **deeplymauritius** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:08 am

I'm just hoping that I am not in the same boat in xyrs time. I know that it can be really hard and very daunting to try out your basic (toddler) finnish on strangers who, no doubt would rather you didn't in some ways, but I think you have to just through yourself in there. This is coming from someone who can be at once as fearless (näive) as a fearless thing and as scared as a really scared thing.... but I have found that being in bars etc. and being bullied by my partner to take the plunge and just ask for a box of matches (even if you don't need them) etc. really has helped me.

I had my second intensive speaking course yest' and I am finding it useful mainly in the breaking the fear/anxiety barrier down more than, say, learning/vastly improving my vocabulary or comprehension.

By the way, has anyone else found that most of the self-study books teach you much more standard Finnish, whereas uni courses etc teach you puhekieli??? All my class mates, it seems, had some difficulties (and vice-versa) understanding my 'proper' finn speak

Any hoo, I meant to say that I agree that having a finnish partner who speaks fluent english can be hindrance as well as a help when it comes to practicing dialogue - finding the right time to have her listen to my embryonic language seems to be the best approach. She is v supportive, however, and I think that this is crucial also - having a powerful motivating force. I really want to be able to speak to Sanna's dad and his side of the family, who speak no or v little english.

I keep on telling myself that I am not banging my head against a brick wall.................

Caroline · Post by **Caroline** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:47 am

PeterF wrote:There too many variable in the equation to be able to give a very precise time scale.

Finnish is a language where one must have a good ear so I think if you are a musicain you would have good a good advantage.

Both are so true. It really depends on the individual, and depends on how you define "fluent". There are many levels of that too.

The connection between Finnish and music studies is an excellent observation. I studied flute for years, starting at age 9, and the positions of the oral muscles when playing the flute are similar to those used to pronounce Finnish, so TT, KK, PP, YÖ, ÖY, etc. tend to be fairly easy for former students of woodwind instruments.

Great Scott · Post by **Great Scott** » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:07 am

I suppose much of this would depend on how you define fluency. If you can clearly define that I can share a few experiences.

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