Why does Finnish literature always contradict itself?

[Evertony]

I have read through all the articles on here, all the official web sites both in Finnish and English and I am still none the wiser. It still really is a case of what comes first the Chicken or Egg? I want to start a new business here as sole trader, when I try to register my business it asks for my finnish id number. When I try to register in the country they ask have I registered my sole trader status (or words to that effect) and if not WHY NOT in no uncertain terms. I am an EU citizen.

It is not a very transparent process coming here is it?

Examples of contradictions I've found:

• Working In Finland
  An alien who intends to engage in remunerated employment in Finland must usually have a residence permit for an employed person. A person engaged in an independent business or profession in Finland must have a residence permit for a self-employed person. However, there are many exceptions to this rule. For example, citizens of European Union (EU) Member States and equivalent persons do not need a residence permit for an employed person or for a self-employed person." Which in true?
• EU citizens and citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland can freely work in Finland if the work lasts for a maximum of three months. After that, they must register their right to reside in Finland, but they do not need a special residence permit. That is just a contradiction in itself is it not?
• The right of EU citizens and equivalent persons to engage in business in Finland
  EU citizens and citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerlandand can freely engage in business in Finland after they have registered their right to reside in Finland. The right applies to those who are either private entrepreneurs or self-employed persons (those with a right of establishment). Also, service providers and receivers, such as doctors, hairdressers, and those seeking medical care at their own expense, may belong to this group. They do not need a separate residence permit. Another contradiction?
• How to register the right to reside in Finland
  A self-employed person must go to the local police department to register his or her right to reside in Finland. The police register the right to reside in Finland of a self-employed person in the Register of Aliens and issue a registration certificate verifying the registration. When registering his or her right to reside in Finland, the self-employed person must present a certificate of the registration of a trade or other reliable account of self-employment.

I mean come on.. Its quite clear Finns don't want anyone to move here and make it as confusing and non-transparent as possible. But it is bordering on the rediculous (not to mention infuriating) how some official sites contradict one another!

I have actually 3 sound business ideas but I will just start 1 for now for the sake of my sanity. But how do I get Finnish bank account to accept payments if I don't have residence permit and how can I get residence permit if I can't prove to Poliisi I have own business. Arrrgghh.

[Upphew]

right to reside != residence permit
Some people need residence permit in order to get right to reside in Finland. Some people have the right right away, but they need to register their residence (like everyone else).

Working In Finland
An alien who intends to engage in remunerated employment in Finland must usually have a residence permit for an employed person. A person engaged in an independent business or profession in Finland must have a residence permit for a self-employed person. However, there are many exceptions to this rule. For example, citizens of European Union (EU) Member States and equivalent persons do not need a residence permit for an employed person or for a self-employed person." Which in true?

All people need RP for self-employed if they are going to be self-employed unless if you are EU citizen. -> both are true

EU citizens and citizens of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland can freely work in Finland if the work lasts for a maximum of three months. After that, they must register their right to reside in Finland, but they do not need a special residence permit. That is just a contradiction in itself is it not?

No it is not. EU citizens (+some) have right to reside in Finland, other people do not. If you are EU person you just register your residence on some basis (work, study, family, etc.) if you are non EU then you must have RP to register yourself.

[sammy]

Perhaps "residence permit" and "registering your residence" are two different things...

Anyway, your definition of "literature" is a fascinating one. I was expecting an extensive rant or essay to the lines of "One Hundred Most Irritating Logical Inconsistencies in the Seven Brothers" or a question about Sofi Oksanen and how someone wearing that much make-up should come up with a novel called Puhdistus

[Rosamunda]

... or a question about Sofi Oksanen and how someone wearing that much make-up should come up with a novel called Puhdistus

Evertony...

If you are an EU citizen (you have the nationality of an EU country) then you can register a company in Finland. You do not even need to be resident in Finland in order to register a company. And you can even do it on-line at www.prh.fi

From "Establishing and Doing Business in Finland" by Tuulikki Holopainen p.14

Basic notification to the Trade Register (Y3)

(...)

The following information shall be submitted on a private entrepreneur:

1) the trade name of the entrepreneur
2) the personal data
- full name
-personal identity number (or, in the absence of the Finnish personal identity number, the date of birth)
-address
-nationality
3) the nature of the trade
4) the municipality of the main establishment
5) the postal address of the place of business
6) auxiliary trade names (...)
7) the date of the notice and the signature

Form Y3 is available on-line, the fee is (used to be...) 65€

Note that this is voluntary. You can trade in Finland without registering your business provided you are under the ceiling for VAT, you do not employ any one other than your spouse and your business is run from your own home. Unless you are a farmer or fisherman in which case you are not subject to the duty of notification.

(But, IMO it is much easier to register your toiminimi and get a VAT number etc all at the same time.)





Next question?

[Rob A.]

....
Anyway, your definition of "literature" is a fascinating one. I was expecting an extensive rant or essay to the lines of "One Hundred Most Irritating Logical Inconsistencies in the Seven Brothers" or a question about Sofi Oksanen and how someone wearing that much make-up should come up with a novel called Puhdistus

....Et moi aussi!.... and, of course, I'm severely disappointed that it's just another dry, bureaucratic problem....

[mrjimsfc]

Actually, it kinda sounds like business as usual almost anywhere in the world. Lots of "i"s to dot and "t"s to cross along with a lot of hoops to jump through. It's all about money and the government wants to make absolutely sure they are getting their share. Unless you have a friend in the upper echelons of government, they don't want to pay/subsidize you for having a business in their country.

[Pursuivant]

I mean come on.. Its quite clear Finns don't want anyone to move here and make it as confusing and non-transparent as possible.

It is quite clear it is an intelligence test.

[Rosamunda]

C'mon.... it is so EASY to start up a business here... you don't even have to get up off your backside! Nearly everything on prh.fi is in English and there are numerous other websites (like Enterprise Finland) in English and books (like the one I'm always quoting) in English FREE from the library and regular courses FREE in ENGLISH (and even other languages too)... and a toiminimi can be set up for under 100€. You don't even have to be in Finland to do it.

The hygiene pass (requirement for a kebab house, pizza delivery, etc ie: what most foreigners do for a living when they start a business) can be taken in almost any language and you have to be illiterate to fail it is so easy.

And now the new tax account system means VAT is a once a quarter headache instead of once a month and even once a year if you pay on time and don't make too much money.

The reason the government has made it so easy for people to start up new businesses (TMI and Oy) is precisely that they want foreigners to start paying tax like everyone else. No brainer.

[Evertony]

Basic notification to the Trade Register (Y3)

(...)

The following information shall be submitted on a private entrepreneur:

1) the trade name of the entrepreneur
2) the personal data
- full name
-personal identity number (or, in the absence of the Finnish personal identity number, the date of birth)
-address
-nationality
3) the nature of the trade
4) the municipality of the main establishment
5) the postal address of the place of business
6) auxiliary trade names (...)
7) the date of the notice and the signature [/i]

Form Y3 is available on-line, the fee is (used to be...) 65€

Note that this is voluntary. You can trade in Finland without registering your business provided you are under the ceiling for VAT, you do not employ any one other than your spouse and your business is run from your own home. Unless you are a farmer or fisherman in which case you are not subject to the duty of notification.

(But, IMO it is much easier to register your toiminimi and get a VAT number etc all at the same time.)

Thanks for the replies guys some interesting and some expected

My problem today is this: I am trying to buy goods of Finnish companies, yet they all refuse to sell to me unless I provide my Y-tunnus/Business ID..Which obviously I don't have. I must say the FInnish government have a tight grip on everything here. Which in some ways is a good thing and stops fly-by-night business's expoliting existing business but it also makes trading in FInland a right pain in the behind for new starters like myself. I have been in touch with my suppliers in England who can send me the stuff over no problem, a little more expensive than Finland with logistics but still, better than banging my head against a brick wall. The only issue with that is a moral one; I want to buy Finnish, I want this economy to grow because it's where I am living and plan to remain so why should the lack of transparency damage trade between me and exising Finnish companies. It also bears a thought than if an honest soul like myself who is trying to do things by the book and finding it just a minefield of contradiction, then there will be a 1000 who don't bother.

As I say I want to fit in here, I want to trade here, indeed most of my sales are overseas yet all the profits will be going back into Finnish economy, Heck I even accept the 23% Vat with open arms (It goes up to 20% in UK next year anyway), but why oh why is there no transparency?

So if someone could possibly should shed some light on the whole "You don't have to register if your EU citizen but no-one will trade with you until you have a company id" conundrum I would be very grateful.

Maybe this question has been asnwered, I should just fill out Y3 form this will give me Business id? However do I need to go to Poliisi and register to live here first or do Y3 first and ignore the bit where it says finnish id no.?

Maybe it would just be easier to use "the spouse" card at the poliisi to get a residence permit..I like to be independent though that is my trouble, get started in a country on my own merits. I have also read the horror stories of people being treated like they come from another planet rather than another EU country when they try and enter the country this way.

[Upphew]

So if someone could possibly should shed some light on the whole "You don't have to register if your EU citizen but no-one will trade with you until you have a company id" conundrum I would be very grateful.

Apples and oranges. Registering gets you into computer with number so everyone knows who you are (and kela coverage etc.). Doing business on the other hand... b2b vs. b2c different rules and some companies won't do b2c as the rules are more strict. So if you try to buy something from b2b, they want to see your _company_ id (y-tunnus) before doing business. Also doing business without ability to deduct VAT is bad business imo.

[Rosamunda]

Maybe this question has been asnwered, I should just fill out Y3 form this will give me Business id? However do I need to go to Poliisi and register to live here first or do Y3 first and ignore the bit where it says finnish id no...

Just fill in the Y3 (you can do it on-line) and put your date of birth in the Finnish ID number. I don't think you need to go to the Poliisi first. Any EU citizen can register a company in Finland.

Businesses need the Y-tunnus of your company as they have a legal obligation to ensure that companies they buy and sell to are bona fide organisations. This is to avoid Carousel Fraud (which is cross-border VAT fraud on a big scale). It's in the rules.

[Upphew]

I have actually 3 sound business ideas but I will just start 1 for now for the sake of my sanity. But how do I get Finnish bank account to accept payments if I don't have residence permit and how can I get residence permit if I can't prove to Poliisi I have own business. Arrrgghh.

Registering business is not enough for registration, you will need to show that the business is enough to feed you and put roof over your head -> established business or business plan (in writing, accepted by... TE-keskus?)

[Evertony]

Thank you very much Penelope & Upphew for the info

I think maybe I'll get a residence permit using spouse as reason and I think I will register my business so I get my Y-Tunnus no. Thank you for your patience and understading I know you get people asking the same questions a thousand times over....even though I did look on the official sites, but as I say they just aren't clear at all. I'm no doubt not the last to ask these questions I think maybe I'll write a guide on the whole process and when I'm done I'll post it up here. You could probably start your own business helping people start business here lol.. Not for me that though

Just one last request Penelope do you have a link for the online Y3 process? The reason I ask is I could only find the 'forms' section and I printed the Y3 off but if there is online version that would save a lot of time & trouble.

Thanks once again

[Upphew]

Just one last request Penelope do you have a link for the online Y3 process? The reason I ask is I could only find the 'forms' section and I printed the Y3 off but if there is online version that would save a lot of time & trouble.

Thanks once again

Doing it online would most likely need some kind of authentication (think online banking)...

[Pursuivant]

Which authentication with onleine banking you cannot do, unless you are a "domiciled resident" in the computer...