Boy circumcision in Finland

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dampa
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Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by dampa » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:46 pm

I have been finding information about boy circumcision here in Finland and I havent been able to get desired information. I know it could be done under certain conditions here but where? I would like to know if anyone know a doc, hospital, clinic in Finland where boy circumcision could be done legally without much hassles? thnx



Boy circumcision in Finland

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EP
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by EP » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:57 pm

I know it could be done under certain conditions
If you mean babies/little boys the conditions are that you are either jewish or muslim.


dampa
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by dampa » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:22 am

EP wrote:
I know it could be done under certain conditions
If you mean babies/little boys the conditions are that you are either jewish or muslim.
Thanks EP, yes babyboy. I am not either a devoted jew or muslim. Is this still possible here legally?


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Hee
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Hee » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:43 am

So you're not doing it for religion?

You do realize that most males in this part of the world are not circumcised, right?

Here's an interesting documentary:

"Whose Body, Whose Rights? - Examining the Ethics and the Human Rights Issue of Infant Male Circumcision"

http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/onlinewbwr.htm


biscayne
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by biscayne » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:04 am

Not completely true. Male circumcision has been quite popular in the United States for boys of non-jewish or muslim ethnicity. It is usually performed in hospital, and I have seen this done often when I was working as a nurse there. The baby is put into a little "chair" like a car seat, strapped in, and then the foreskin is not "cut" off as it would be in the religious ritual ceremonies, but sort of "screwed" off by a surgical device. My observation was that it caused no problem for the baby, it was being strapped into the chair thing they didn't like. It seems that in the US most males were circumcised in the 50s and 60s, because the mothers gave the reason for wanting the babies circumcised was so they would be "like their Dads", the OBs were happy to do it, for the hygiene purposes.

Having no foreskin, means no need to retract it when washing, and is considered to be a normal hygiene measure. I know there are a lots of people against it, but comparing it to female genital mutilation, which I have also seen (the results, not the actual operation) is absolutely unfair, that is something completely different which removes the possiblilty of clitoral sexual pleasure, causes continual infectons, and in the case of infibulation (the sewing together of the labia), causes such problems with childbirth that there is a hugely increased risk of maternal and child death. The foreskin is basically medically redundant, as opposed to the clitoris. Many women report increased sexual pleasure with circumcised partners.

We also do lots of things to children which they don't get a say in, we bring them up in our religion(or none) for example, without consulting them. My Finnish SO is circumcised and he is baptized lutheran like most Finns, and is completely Finnish with no foreigners ever recorded has having been in the family. It was done for hygenic reasons. He was born in 68, so it must have been done in Finland at some point. It is so normal in the US, that some of you might remember the "Sex and the City" episode where one of the characters was shocked to see a man who had not be circumcised, as she never had before.

I'm not advising the OP in any capacity, just explaining that there are many people who are neither muslim nor jew, who have it done to their sons, for hygienic reasons. Lately there has been a lot about it in professional journals, and I'm expecting an upsurge in uptake.


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Hee
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Hee » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:27 am

biscayne wrote:Not completely true. Male circumcision has been quite popular in the United States for boys of non-jewish or muslim ethnicity.
This part of the world is not the United States. Not even close. However circumcision in the US is on a downward trend with the numbers currently somewhere around 50/50.

I've lived in the US and discussed circumcision and the reason most non-religious parents did it is because they didn't want their sons to be different. I don't believe that parents have the right to decide, especially if it's not for religion.


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Mook
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Mook » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:55 am

EP wrote:
I know it could be done under certain conditions
If you mean babies/little boys the conditions are that you are either jewish or muslim.
I guess the authorities turn a blind eye to this kind of genital mutilation, rather than it being strictly legal.
dampa wrote:I know it could be done under certain conditions here but where?
Recurring infection?
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Rip
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Rip » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:59 am

it is legal (http://www.kko.fi/44726.htm ) if done in by proper medical personnel. It's also very rare here for without religious (or actual medical) reasons, so I'd consider still it one more time. As to where you can do it, I do not know. Google search seems to result clinics in Estonia. Maybe a polite inquiry to the local Jewish congregation might help....


Tiwaz
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Tiwaz » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:20 am

One should also remember that there is always risk of infection and/or complications in circumcision.

There is no such minor operation where parts of you are cut off that it does not carry such risk, specially on newborns who do not yet possess fully developed immune system.

Second, there is no excuse to mutilate child based on "hygiene". Modern world offers perfectly good opportunity for handling personal hygiene without cutting off any parts of body. Foreskin is not some kind of immovable barrier, it can easily be rolled back to permit cleaning the area beneath. Soap is also in plentiful supply over here, just visit local market and witness the variety.


Male circumcision without medical grounds is medieval and completely unnecessary and sooner our politicians get off their arse and forbid the practice the better.


Also remember, circumcision (unlike being baptized to religion which was comparison biscayne liked to present) is practically impossible to undo! It just never is the same thing even if you go through surgery to have your foreskin remade.

Regarding biscayne and her statement that many women report more sexual pleasure with circumcised partners.

Opposite is also reported by lots of women and men. Uncircumcised penis has more mobility and lubrication compared to circumcised one (foreskin able to roll back acting as ball bearing of sorts during penetration, for lubrication just compare circumcised and uncircumcised tip of penis. One is hardened and dry, other one is not.)

There are also reports on problems circumcised males have in sex, some studies have found out that circumcised men have serious issues with erection, impotence and premature ejaculation. Other studies point out the opposite.
http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/ Here you can find lots of studies and links to them on the negative aspects of circumcision.

So as there is no clear benefit from circumcision, it would be very advisable to seriously consider if committing such irreparable change to child is moral.


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Mook
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Mook » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:41 am

biscayne wrote:Having no foreskin, means no need to retract it when washing
Yes, I always find it such a burden having to do that in the morning. :roll:

biscayne wrote:The foreskin is basically medically redundant, as opposed to the clitoris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin wrote: At the end of foreskin, there is a band of tissue called the ridged band, which, according to one study, is rich in nerve endings called Meissner's corpuscles.[2] According to a study by Sorrells et al., the five most sensitive areas of the penis are on the foreskin.[3]
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onkko
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by onkko » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:59 am

Rip wrote:it is legal (http://www.kko.fi/44726.htm ) if done in by proper medical personnel. It's also very rare here for without religious (or actual medical) reasons, so I'd consider still it one more time. As to where you can do it, I do not know. Google search seems to result clinics in Estonia. Maybe a polite inquiry to the local Jewish congregation might help....
Its legal if its done because of religious beliefs or medical condition. Its still assault even after that decision if its done just because parent think it is "cool" to mutilate baby.

Google translate on last part of decision

"Since the measure was made to B's acceptable, he and his guardian on grounds of religion, and it was carried out in a medically appropriate manner without causing B to unnecessary suffering, the measure can be considered in this case the whole is addressed in the minor B's life, limb or the measure was not considered contrary to their interests. For these reasons the A's procedure in organizing his son circumcision is not regarded as contrary to law and therefore punishable. Thus, there is no need to specifically comment on whether A's conduct it would be regarded as such a measure carried out the physician acted by a partner or instigator."
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biscayne
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by biscayne » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:22 am

I am not either for or against circumcision, nor giving advice, however, if anyone has access to the professional journals online via Pubmed, Cinhal, Medline etc., there is much information on the subject. Personally, I wouldn't go by Wiki, as someone mentioned in another posting, you can put anything on it which others can read. Professional journals are a better bet, below is from the BMJ (British Medical Journal), a well respected medical journal



RESULTS: There is substantial evidence that circumcision protects males from HIV infection, penile carcinoma, urinary tract infections, and ulcerative sexually transmitted diseases. We could find little scientific evidence of adverse effects on sexual, psychological, or emotional health.

sexually Transmitted Infections 1998;74:368-373; doi:10.1136/sti.74.5.368
Copyright © 1998 by the BMJ Publishing Group Ltd.

It's 1998, but there is plenty of more recent stuff out there. Again, I'm not for or against, just saying that there is another side to the story then the knee jerk "mutilation" reaction.


Upphew
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Upphew » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:59 am

biscayne wrote:RESULTS: There is substantial evidence that circumcision protects males from HIV infection, penile carcinoma, urinary tract infections, and ulcerative sexually transmitted diseases. We could find little scientific evidence of adverse effects on sexual, psychological, or emotional health.

sexually Transmitted Infections 1998;74:368-373; doi:10.1136/sti.74.5.368
Copyright © 1998 by the BMJ Publishing Group Ltd.

It's 1998, but there is plenty of more recent stuff out there. Again, I'm not for or against, just saying that there is another side to the story then the knee jerk "mutilation" reaction.
HIV and std's told as the big reason for circumcision? For babies? :thumbsup: (and yes, I know that the reason for smaller risk is probably from thickening of the skin as it is not anymore protected by foreskin)

btw, how many circumcised men masturbate without lube?
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Hee
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Hee » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:20 pm

biscayne wrote:Many women report increased sexual pleasure with circumcised partners.
That makes little sense on many levels. And I believe that most "evidence" points to the contrary.


Tiwaz
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Re: Boy circumcision in Finland

Post by Tiwaz » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:05 pm

Except Biscayne forgot to check more recent reading which you could find behind my link. Here is little quote from there (website contains links to sources).
Loss of sexual pleasure. Denniston reported that some circumcised men would not have the operation again because of loss of sexual pleasure.61 Kim & Pang (2006) reported that 48 percent of Korean men in a survey experienced loss of mastubatory pleasure after circumcision as compared with 8 percent that experienced increased pleasure and 8 percent reported improved sexual life, but 20 percent reported worsened sexual life.66 Solinis & Yiannaki reported that 16 percent of the men in their study reported a better sex life after circumcision but 35 percent reported a worsened sex life.69


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