RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

How to? Read other's experiences. Find useful advice on shipping, immigration, residence permits, visas and more.
betelgeuse
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:17 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:55 am
sra wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:56 pm
It does not say anything about leaving Finland and going to another EU country with pending application status. I have called migri and they cannot make me any wiser on this question either....
Travelling as a tourist would not be permitted, but your spouse has the right to move with you to country B.
You have to ask the border guard of country B how this is being handled in practice.
If there are border controls, the approach is claiming entry under the free movement directive (taking into account of course that due to COVID there are currently restrictions on free movement).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... /?uri=cele

For example:
Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.



Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 862
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:50 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:17 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:55 am
sra wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:56 pm
It does not say anything about leaving Finland and going to another EU country with pending application status. I have called migri and they cannot make me any wiser on this question either....
Travelling as a tourist would not be permitted, but your spouse has the right to move with you to country B.
You have to ask the border guard of country B how this is being handled in practice.
If there are border controls, the approach is claiming entry under the free movement directive (taking into account of course that due to COVID there are currently restrictions on free movement).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... /?uri=cele

For example:
Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.
I already said that there is the right to move, but how does it work in practice in country B?

How do you convince the border guard of country B that this applies to you?
If you get into a police control on the way from the airport in country B, how do you convince the police officer that you are not just overstaying your stay in Schengen?

betelgeuse
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:21 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:50 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:17 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:55 am


Travelling as a tourist would not be permitted, but your spouse has the right to move with you to country B.
You have to ask the border guard of country B how this is being handled in practice.
If there are border controls, the approach is claiming entry under the free movement directive (taking into account of course that due to COVID there are currently restrictions on free movement).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... /?uri=cele

For example:
Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.
I already said that there is the right to move, but how does it work in practice in country B?

How do you convince the border guard of country B that this applies to you?
If you get into a police control on the way from the airport in country B, how do you convince the police officer that you are not just overstaying your stay in Schengen?
Free movement directive has priority over Schengen tourism rules. Safest option is travelling together with a marriage certificate from DVV accompanied by a multilingual standard form in a language accepted by the destination country.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/f ... dex_en.htm

FinlandGirl
Posts: 862
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:21 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:50 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:17 am


If there are border controls, the approach is claiming entry under the free movement directive (taking into account of course that due to COVID there are currently restrictions on free movement).

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... /?uri=cele

For example:

I already said that there is the right to move, but how does it work in practice in country B?

How do you convince the border guard of country B that this applies to you?
If you get into a police control on the way from the airport in country B, how do you convince the police officer that you are not just overstaying your stay in Schengen?
Free movement directive has priority over Schengen tourism rules. Safest option is travelling together with a marriage certificate from DVV accompanied by a multilingual standard form in a language accepted by the destination country.
Safest option is to ask the authorities in country B what documents work in practice.

It would be a bad idea to follow your suggestion and start discussing that with low-level border guard members or police officers, who might deny entry or put the spouse in police custody until the situation is resolved.

The difference between the married couple travelling to country B for tourism (clearly illegal) and moving there with the EU citizen spouse (legal) is something that would happen in the future (both are moving their residence to country B).

betelgeuse
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:55 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm
Safest option is to ask the authorities in country B what documents work in practice.
They are not allowed to ask for anything else beyond the free movement directive. Anything else is a breach of EU law and EU authorities would be interested. Of course it's still a good idea to check the websites of authorities in the destination country.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm
It would be a bad idea to follow your suggestion and start discussing that with low-level border guard members or police officers, who might deny entry or put the spouse in police custody until the situation is resolved.
I have used free movement directive articles with border officials and they were properly trained. Of course this doesn't extend to every official in every member state.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm
The difference between the married couple travelling to country B for tourism (clearly illegal) and moving there with the EU citizen spouse (legal) is something that would happen in the future (both are moving their residence to country B).
The right of residence for up to three months includes any purpose such as tourism.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 862
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:09 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:55 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm
The difference between the married couple travelling to country B for tourism (clearly illegal) and moving there with the EU citizen spouse (legal) is something that would happen in the future (both are moving their residence to country B).
The right of residence for up to three months includes any purpose such as tourism.
EU wrote: I am a non-EU national married to an Irish national and living in Ireland with him. I hold an Irish residence permit. We plan to travel to France together later this year. Do I have to get a visa to enter France or can I rely on my Irish residence card?

You will need a visa to enter France. Your residence permit was issued under Irish law rather than EU law as you are married to an Irish citizen and living in Ireland, (i.e. you are not exercising EU Treaty rights). However, since you will be travelling with your husband to France, your visa should be granted quickly and free of charge.

betelgeuse
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:27 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:09 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:55 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:37 pm
The difference between the married couple travelling to country B for tourism (clearly illegal) and moving there with the EU citizen spouse (legal) is something that would happen in the future (both are moving their residence to country B).
The right of residence for up to three months includes any purpose such as tourism.
EU wrote: I am a non-EU national married to an Irish national and living in Ireland with him. I hold an Irish residence permit. We plan to travel to France together later this year. Do I have to get a visa to enter France or can I rely on my Irish residence card?

You will need a visa to enter France. Your residence permit was issued under Irish law rather than EU law as you are married to an Irish citizen and living in Ireland, (i.e. you are not exercising EU Treaty rights). However, since you will be travelling with your husband to France, your visa should be granted quickly and free of charge.
So? These two statements are not in conflict. Visas are covered in article 5 of the free movement directive.
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.
Ireland is also a bit different given that it's outside Schengen (so one will always have to go through border controls to enter an another member state)

FinlandGirl
Posts: 862
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:52 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:27 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:09 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:55 pm
The right of residence for up to three months includes any purpose such as tourism.
EU wrote: I am a non-EU national married to an Irish national and living in Ireland with him. I hold an Irish residence permit. We plan to travel to France together later this year. Do I have to get a visa to enter France or can I rely on my Irish residence card?

You will need a visa to enter France. Your residence permit was issued under Irish law rather than EU law as you are married to an Irish citizen and living in Ireland, (i.e. you are not exercising EU Treaty rights). However, since you will be travelling with your husband to France, your visa should be granted quickly and free of charge.
So? These two statements are not in conflict. Visas are covered in article 5 of the free movement directive.
2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.
Member States shall grant such persons every facility to obtain the necessary visas. Such visas shall be issued free of charge as soon as possible and on the basis of an accelerated procedure.
You are arguing that an overstayed visa or overstayed visa-free stay would fulfill the requirement for an entry visa.

You are also implying that a non-EU spouse could enter Schengen once and then stay inside the Schengen area for decades without ever being required to register a right of residence or apply for a new visa as long as they cross a border together at least once every 3 months (like a daytrip from Helsinki to Tallinn).

Your line of arguing would also have the consequence that it would be illegal for DVV to require a non-EU spouse of a non-Finnish EU citizen to have a residence card.

sra
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:29 pm

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by sra » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:50 pm

Thanks for the discussion, people! I am in no way trying to trick anyone at all, nor to circumvent rules and regulations - I am just trying to solve a practical issue!
Anyway, I have engaged a lawyer to help with the issue as I think it is beyond what I can deal with on my own. Will keep you posted on the final outcome!

betelgeuse
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:55 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:52 pm
You are arguing that an overstayed visa or overstayed visa-free stay would fulfill the requirement for an entry visa.
A visa overstay is generally understood to refer to continuing to stay illegally after the expiry of a visa – not staying legally under some other basis.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:52 pm
You are also implying that a non-EU spouse could enter Schengen once and then stay inside the Schengen area for decades without ever being required to register a right of residence or apply for a new visa as long as they cross a border together at least once every 3 months (like a daytrip from Helsinki to Tallinn).
The spouse might as well skip going to Tallinn as neglecting to register right of residence is an act punishable by fines.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:52 pm
Your line of arguing would also have the consequence that it would be illegal for DVV to require a non-EU spouse of a non-Finnish EU citizen to have a residence card.
Are you referring to registration to the population register? It does not require having a residence card.

"4) hän on sellaisen henkilön perheenjäsen, jolla on Suomessa tässä laissa tarkoitettu kotikunta; taikka"

https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1994/19940201#L2P4

Souka
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:24 pm

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by Souka » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:11 am

Hi , update my husband recive the decision today 22/06/2021 the decision take 4 months from 23/2/2021

hojoos
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:15 pm

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by hojoos » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:35 pm

Everything is being seriously delayed due to the pandemic, unfortunately. I am from Italy, https://worldcams.tv/italy/venice/rialto-bridge, and it is a tremendous mess with documents till now here. Hopefully, vaccination certificates will put an end to it. I already here people use it to travel abroad with no restrictions, but it is still different for every country.

fatiq
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:01 pm

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by fatiq » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:07 pm

Hi, my spouse went for the biometric authentication (first interview) on 19th May 2021. We are still in queue with 417 applications before us. We are from Pakistan & I heard that usually there is a second interview call in our case as well. Let's see, hoping for a positive decision soon. Is there anyone else with the same date?

jenkkipoika
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:47 pm
Location: Key West, Florida, USA

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by jenkkipoika » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm

Just to provide an additional data point. I went to Migri on 14.9.2021 to verify my identity after submitting my application online, and it is now an average of nine months wait, and when I check the place in queue I have 1027 applications ahead of me.
Image

CDN
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:07 am

Re: RP for Spouse 2021 (Other Nationals)

Post by CDN » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:26 pm

My observation is that they seem to process somewhere between 5-10 applications per day.


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