Remigration RP Questions

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viveksilvola
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am

Remigration RP Questions

Post by viveksilvola » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am

Hello,

I recently learned I seem to be eligible for a Finnish residency permit per https://migri.fi/en/remigration, and am entertaining the idea of moving sometime in the next few years from the US. My grandmother was born in the US to Finnish parents shortly after they moved here, and prior to either of them obtaining US citizenship. I've read through as much documentation as I've been able to find, and where I've gotten stuck is on a piece of the documentation.

The application requires "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)" in addition to birth certificates for my US relatives. The birth certificates are no problem, and I have naturalization documents for my great grandparents as well, showing the year they relinquished their Finnish citizenship. However, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start. And, I assume this is a hard requirement on the application, but is it? Would birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?

Also - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.

Thanks!



Remigration RP Questions

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Upphew
Posts: 10748
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by Upphew » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:27 am

viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
Also - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.

Thanks!
Afaik migri decides the starting day for the permit based on your planned move.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.

heretostay
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by heretostay » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:38 pm

You might have problems if your grandparent was never registered as a Finnish citizen. Being born in the USA conveys automatic citizenship regardless and of parents’ citizenships it is entirely possible that your grandparent was never a Finnish citizen.

viveksilvola
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by viveksilvola » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pm

heretostay wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:38 pm
You might have problems if your grandparent was never registered as a Finnish citizen. Being born in the USA conveys automatic citizenship regardless and of parents’ citizenships it is entirely possible that your grandparent was never a Finnish citizen.
My understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?

viveksilvola
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by viveksilvola » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pm

Upphew wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:27 am
viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
Also - let's say I figure out the paperwork and apply. The application also asks for a date of planned residency - how accurate does this need to be? Given the processing times, etc. I'm not really sure how to plan a move date. For example, if I applied today and specified a move a year from now, would it get rejected, or would something like that be acceptable? Two years? I saw another poster state their permit was good for 4 years - curious if that is the norm for one of these as well.

Thanks!
Afaik migri decides the starting day for the permit based on your planned move.
Makes sense. Thanks!

heretostay
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by heretostay » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:12 am

viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pm
My understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?
Your grandmother would not automatically have been a Finnish citizen at birth. Eligibility for citizenship is not the same as having citizenship. As I understand it, if her parents never registered her right of citizenship, then she was never a Finnish citizen. This is why the requirement for documentation from national archives or parish in Finland is required for the application.

viveksilvola
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by viveksilvola » Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 am

heretostay wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:12 am
viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:26 pm
My understanding was that my grandmother would have become a Finnish citizen at birth, as her parents were at the time she was born. As far as I know she did not keep it, but it reads that as long as she was at any time I would be eligible. Is that not the case?
Your grandmother would not automatically have been a Finnish citizen at birth. Eligibility for citizenship is not the same as having citizenship. As I understand it, if her parents never registered her right of citizenship, then she was never a Finnish citizen. This is why the requirement for documentation from national archives or parish in Finland is required for the application.

I'm going off of this: https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship which states: The Finnish citizenship of a child’s parent will automatically pass on to a child who is born on 1 June 2003 or later, if:

the child’s mother is a Finnish citizen
the child’s father is a Finnish citizen and married to the child’s mother
the child is born in Finland and the father is a Finnish citizen whose paternity has been established on 1 June 2003 or later
the child is born in Finland and the child’s non-birth mother is a Finnish citizen whose maternity has been established on 1 April 2019 or later.

This was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s. Both of my grandmothers parents were Finnish citizens and married at the time of her birth.

heretostay
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by heretostay » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:52 am

I would consult migri directly since they would be the ones to make the decision. Your case is not straightforward and the law from 2003 is likely very different than in 1920. To me it seems that you are one generation too far to qualify for remigration, but I am not an expert at all. Consulting Migri or a lawyer in Finland would be your best option.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by FinlandGirl » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:32 pm

viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
However, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start.
Ask the parish where your grandparents were born and married, the records might exist even when then haven't yet been made available online.
viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
Would birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
The application form says "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)".

US documents usually contain whatever information the local clerk was told verbally.
It was common that people switched to an anglicized form of their name shortly after moving to the US, do you even have the original Finnish or Swedish names of your great grandparents?
Some people had reasons for claiming a different birth date or country of origin than the actual one, I've seen cases of 5 different birthdates when reviewing US records that clearly belonged to the same person.
viveksilvola wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 am
This was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s.
The 2003 law was the first to introduce dual citizenship, before 2003 you automatically lost Finnish citizenship when acquiring another one.

viveksilvola
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:12 am

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by viveksilvola » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:10 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:32 pm
viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
However, I have had absolutely no luck finding any records online of my great grandparents birth or residency in Finland. I've checked what I'm able to on the Finnish National Archives site, as well as a number of ancestry sites - it looks like a lot of parish records stop at 1850, and I'm trying to find something between 1897-1917. Does anyone know any resources to locate this kind of document? I am also planning a trip to Finland next year to visit, and can do in-person reach potentially if needed, but have little idea where to start.
Ask the parish where your grandparents were born and married, the records might exist even when then haven't yet been made available online.
viveksilvola wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:27 am
Would birth certificates of my grandparents and immigration paperwork perhaps be enough?
The application form says "Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)".

US documents usually contain whatever information the local clerk was told verbally.
It was common that people switched to an anglicized form of their name shortly after moving to the US, do you even have the original Finnish or Swedish names of your great grandparents?
Some people had reasons for claiming a different birth date or country of origin than the actual one, I've seen cases of 5 different birthdates when reviewing US records that clearly belonged to the same person.
viveksilvola wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 am
This was of course as of 2003 - I am not sure if the law was different prior to that, and am not finding a resource describing what it was in the 1920s.
The 2003 law was the first to introduce dual citizenship, before 2003 you automatically lost Finnish citizenship when acquiring another one.
Thanks! That makes sense they would not all be online. I was able to find the Parish where they were born and a form to mail them, so I will do that. I expect they will have records - I was able to find records several generations earlier going back to 1600 as well as get in contact with some distant family who still live there.

I do have their Finnish names, yes - and you are correct they did modify them when they file immigration paperwork. We have family records with the original names and birth dates which I believe to be accurate.

Thanks for the answer about the 2003 changes too - I'm remaining optimistic that this could actually work out.

teese05
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:07 pm

Re: Remigration RP Questions

Post by teese05 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am

Hi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland. I have been communicating with Finland Immigration and it sounds like I may qualify based on parentage of my grandmother, the fact she lost her citizenship doesn't matter, just that she was born to Finnish parents abroad.

I have been able to gather my birth certificate, my mothers and my grandmother's, but for the residency permit application I think I will need Anna's birth record from 1882 in Finland. I found her baptism record with a Parish in Iilsami, but I am unsure how to get any more official documentation for the application.

Here is what migri.fi lists as acceptable proof of Finnish birth:
    Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)

    Can anyone help point me in the right direction to get this information. I know what Parish and when my great-grandmother was born, but I am unsure how to get an official record. Thank you!

    FinlandGirl
    Posts: 1322
    Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

    Re: Remigration RP Questions

    Post by FinlandGirl » Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pm

    teese05 wrote:
    Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
    Hi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
    The 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.
    teese05 wrote:
    Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
    I have been able to gather my birth certificate, my mothers and my grandmother's, but for the residency permit application I think I will need Anna's birth record from 1882 in Finland. I found her baptism record with a Parish in Iilsami,
    Should this be Iisalmi ?
    teese05 wrote:
    Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
    but I am unsure how to get any more official documentation for the application.

    Here is what migri.fi lists as acceptable proof of Finnish birth:
      Certificates from Finnish archives verifying Finnish citizenship (e.g. official certificates from parishes, certificates from the Finnish National Archives)

      Can anyone help point me in the right direction to get this information. I know what Parish and when my great-grandmother was born, but I am unsure how to get an official record.
      Contact the parish.

      https://www.iisalmenseurakunta.fi/yhteystiedot
      Palvelutoimisto ja aluekeskusrekisteri

      An email in English should be fine to ask them how to get a record.

      betelgeuse
      Posts: 4350
      Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

      Re: Remigration RP Questions

      Post by betelgeuse » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:41 pm

      FinlandGirl wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pm
      teese05 wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
      Hi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
      The 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.
      I haven't looked at 1920s law but the 1968 law already allowed dual citizenship in many situations at birth. Current and previous law don't function so that you gain and then lose Finnish citizenship at birth (again no idea about old law but seems like a weird mechanism in general).

      "Henkilö, joka on sekä Suomen että vieraan valtion kansalainen, voidaan hakemuksesta vapauttaa Suomen kansalaisuudesta."

      https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/1968/19680401

      teese05
      Posts: 4
      Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:07 pm

      Re: Remigration RP Questions

      Post by teese05 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:04 pm

      FinlandGirl wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pm
      teese05 wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am

      Contact the parish.

      https://www.iisalmenseurakunta.fi/yhteystiedot
      Palvelutoimisto ja aluekeskusrekisteri

      An email in English should be fine to ask them how to get a record.
      THANK YOU! I did mean Iisalmi, had a typo. I will try contacting them!

      teese05
      Posts: 4
      Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:07 pm

      Re: Remigration RP Questions

      Post by teese05 » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:16 pm

      betelgeuse wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:41 pm
      FinlandGirl wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:50 pm
      teese05 wrote:
      Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:21 am
      Hi! I am in the same boat as the original poster! My grandmother was born in the US to my Finnish great-grand parents. My great-grandmother, Anna, was never a US citizen, and my grandmother born in 1920 was a Finnish citizen by birth, although she lost that citizenship at age 22 by losing her connection to Finland.
      The 2003 law that introduced dual citizenship did not apply in the 1920s, technically she lost her Finnish citizenship immediately after birth.
      I haven't looked at 1920s law but the 1968 law already allowed dual citizenship in many situations at birth. Current and previous law don't function so that you gain and then lose Finnish citizenship at birth (again no idea about old law but seems like a weird mechanism in general).

      "Henkilö, joka on sekä Suomen että vieraan valtion kansalainen, voidaan hakemuksesta vapauttaa Suomen kansalaisuudesta."

      https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/1968/19680401
      Thank you for this! I tried contacting Finnish Immigration and Citizenship, here's what they replied to my emails asking on this:

      Email from me Sept 16 2021:

      "Thank you for your reply. What I am not clear on is if my Grandmother was considered a Finnish citizen at birth as she was born abroad to two Finnish parents here in the states.

      Does the parentage principle apply to my grandmother, born in 1920?

      "A child of a Finnish citizen receives Finnish citizenship through his or her parents (the parentage principle). This means that the Finnish citizenship of a child's mother or father will automatically be passed on to the child. The parentage principle is always applied in accordance with the provisions of the Nationality Act that were in force at the time the child was born."
      https://migri.fi/en/finnish-citizenship "

      Their reply Sept 20, 2021:

      "Thank you for your message.

      According with the provisions of the Nationality Act that were in force at the time your grandmother was born (1920) it is possible that she received Finnish citizenship through her parents. But there’s a possibility that she has also lost Finnish citizenship when she turned 22 years. "

      That sounded promising to me, but perhaps I am being too optimistic....? Thanks for all your help!


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