Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:33 am

hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:17 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:19 am


https://migri.fi/en/means-of-support
https://migri.fi/en/income-requirement- ... in-finland

That would be 29 520 Euro per year plus tuition fees.

Hi where did you get this number from? The means of support page says 13,440e per year for the student but the requirement for family members page appears to be stating if you come as an entire family under a work permit not as a student, and even then 2900 x 12 would be 34k a year not 29520. Just wondering how the numbers are being arrived at?
560+700+500+400+300



Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

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betelgeuse
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:42 am

hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:08 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:56 pm


https://migri.fi/en/income-requirement- ... in-finland



Around 4000-4500 Euro per month.

Median salary in Finland is 3100 Euro per month.
The salary required would actually be less because any family benefits can be included. With a new baby, the mother will be eligible for a while and there will be child benefit for all three.
Any idea how much less? I would need to know before committing to the idea really.
You can also supplement with money in the bank. Given you have stated having large savings, the means of support shouldn’t really be an issue.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:19 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:56 pm
hbar wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:43 pm


Hi FinlandGirl do you have a source for this so i can read it?
https://migri.fi/en/income-requirement- ... in-finland
hbar wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:43 pm
And also do you know roughly what 2900e after tax would work out at as a salary, ie what amount salary would i have to earn pre-tax to qualify?
Around 4000-4500 Euro per month.

Median salary in Finland is 3100 Euro per month.
The salary required would actually be less because any family benefits can be included. With a new baby, the mother will be eligible for a while and there will be child benefit for all three.
Does Migri make any assumptions about future Kela decisions regarding benefits that have not yet been granted?
Does Migri assume the mother will not place the child in daycare?

What municipality of residence does Migri assume for someone who has not yet moved to Finland?
The effect on the amount of taxes to be paid can be nearly as large as the child benefit for three children.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:32 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:42 am
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:08 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 am


The salary required would actually be less because any family benefits can be included. With a new baby, the mother will be eligible for a while and there will be child benefit for all three.
Any idea how much less? I would need to know before committing to the idea really.
You can also supplement with money in the bank. Given you have stated having large savings, the means of support shouldn’t really be an issue.
Can you provide a source that this works for non-B permits?
I'd be curious to see the for how many years money would be required when supplementing income applying for 4 year or permanent RPs.

betelgeuse
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:30 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:19 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:56 pm


https://migri.fi/en/income-requirement- ... in-finland



Around 4000-4500 Euro per month.

Median salary in Finland is 3100 Euro per month.
The salary required would actually be less because any family benefits can be included. With a new baby, the mother will be eligible for a while and there will be child benefit for all three.
Does Migri make any assumptions about future Kela decisions regarding benefits that have not yet been granted?
Does Migri assume the mother will not place the child in daycare?

What municipality of residence does Migri assume for someone who has not yet moved to Finland?
The effect on the amount of taxes to be paid can be nearly as large as the child benefit for three children.
The applicant can provide their own calculation which shows the assumptions made.

betelgeuse
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:39 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:32 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:42 am
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:08 am


Any idea how much less? I would need to know before committing to the idea really.
You can also supplement with money in the bank. Given you have stated having large savings, the means of support shouldn’t really be an issue.
Can you provide a source that this works for non-B permits?
I'd be curious to see the for how many years money would be required when supplementing income applying for 4 year or permanent RPs.
The Aliens Act only has a unified section 39 dealing with multiple permit types. I have always found it strange that Migri structures their web pages per permit type. While there’s common ways for each permit type, the current website doesn’t give the full picture.

https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2004/20040301#L4P39
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:32 am
I'd be curious to see the for how many years money would be required when supplementing income applying for 4 year or permanent RPs.
For the full four years but one could request a shorter permit. I am not sure how a permanent RP would be looked at.

hbar
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:24 pm

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by hbar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:19 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:42 am
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:08 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:05 am


The salary required would actually be less because any family benefits can be included. With a new baby, the mother will be eligible for a while and there will be child benefit for all three.
Any idea how much less? I would need to know before committing to the idea really.
You can also supplement with money in the bank. Given you have stated having large savings, the means of support shouldn’t really be an issue.
We were also planning on buying a house outright. Does this affect the minimum income amount/savings amount? I know it does in other countries since the minimum amount often assumes rent is included in your monthly expenditure.

betelgeuse
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:40 pm

hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:19 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:42 am
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:08 am


Any idea how much less? I would need to know before committing to the idea really.
You can also supplement with money in the bank. Given you have stated having large savings, the means of support shouldn’t really be an issue.
We were also planning on buying a house outright. Does this affect the minimum income amount/savings amount? I know it does in other countries since the minimum amount often assumes rent is included in your monthly expenditure.
It does assuming it’s cheaper to maintain than the rent used for the Migri guidance tables.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:06 pm

hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
3. I can bring a huge chunk of money with me (more than 100k euros) to start a business.
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:19 am
We were also planning on buying a house outright.
Is the money for the house the same 100k?

Finding a house for a family of 5 in commuting distance to a workplace at that price can be a challenge, especially in the capital region.

If you move for a job, you would start with a 1 year residence permit, a 4 month trial period in the job and no credit history in Finland.
Banks tend to be reluctant to grant mortgages in such cases.
Last edited by FinlandGirl on Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

hbar
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:24 pm

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by hbar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:29 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:06 pm
hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
3. I can bring a huge chunk of money with me (more than 100k euros) to start a business.
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:19 am
We were also planning on buying a house outright.
Is the money for the house the same 100k?

Finding a house for a family of 5 in commuting distance to a workplace at that price can be a challenge, especially in the capital region.

If you move for a job, you would start with a 1 year residence permit, a 4 month trial period in the job and no credit history in Finland.
Banks tend to be reluctant to grant mortgages in such cases.
No i would be bringing in excess of 1m euro with me in total.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:56 pm

hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
Does this affect the minimum income amount/savings amount?
In practice it does not matter that much for you.

If you have a good personal portfolio of relevant work experience, you should be able to get a job offer for a senior position with sufficient salary.

No company will hire you from abroad if equal local applicants (like foreign graduates of Finnish universities) are available.
hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
I'm worried that it would be basically impossible since i'm up against Finnish people with degrees who are also basically bilingual.
There are not enough Finnish people with relevant degrees to fill all positions in IT, they are not your competition.
Job openings in Finland often receive many applications from people in countries like India with a relevant degree and job experience there.
A minimum bar is that your work experience has to be stronger than several years of working at an outsourcing company in India.

hbar
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:24 pm

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by hbar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:33 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:56 pm
hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
Does this affect the minimum income amount/savings amount?
In practice it does not matter that much for you.

If you have a good personal portfolio of relevant work experience, you should be able to get a job offer for a senior position with sufficient salary.

No company will hire you from abroad if equal local applicants (like foreign graduates of Finnish universities) are available.
hbar wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42 pm
I'm worried that it would be basically impossible since i'm up against Finnish people with degrees who are also basically bilingual.
There are not enough Finnish people with relevant degrees to fill all positions in IT, they are not your competition.
Job openings in Finland often receive many applications from people in countries like India with a relevant degree and job experience there.
A minimum bar is that your work experience has to be stronger than several years of working at an outsourcing company in India.
I can work on more projects outside of work to bolster my portfolio too but i'm really worried about the after-tax salary requirement.

It's a big undertaking since i would like to learn some Finnish before committing to the move and because we cannot move until some loose ends here etc are tied up and potentially until the world has stabilised RE: pandemic, i don't want to commit to it in my mind longer term if it then turns out i don't have the minerals for gaining a job that pays enough. Of course my wife could learn some Finnish and also look for work but the chance of that happening all at the same time is basically zero.

I appreciate all your efforts (along with Betelgeuse) but it's hard to know what to do without real specific numbers.

I guess your tax situation is harder to work out? Here in the UK, we simply take the salary, minus our percentage (20, 40 or 45%) and that gives us our after tax earnings.

I'm presuming i'd get some tax breaks for having children?

That's the only problem at the minute - i don't want to commit to something to only be made aware that it was basically impossible all along due to the minimum salary requirement.

I take it i'm not allowed to count income from another country? Say i have several thousand per year coming in from a business in another country, i can't count that because it's not coming from a Finnish registered business?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:35 pm

hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:33 pm
I guess your tax situation is harder to work out? Here in the UK, we simply take the salary, minus our percentage (20, 40 or 45%) and that gives us our after tax earnings.
Taxation is progressive and factors like municipality of residence and church membership can make up to 6% difference in income taxation, the calculator from the tax office gives estimates for taxation (which includes mandatory social security payments like healthcare and pension):
https://www.vero.fi/en/individuals/tax- ... alculator/
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:29 pm
i would be bringing in excess of 1m euro with me in total.
It is really bitter that you did not move 6 months ago.

As EU citizen (or as UK citizen who moved before 1.1.2021) you could just have moved to Finland and say "sufficient means of support" when registering the right of residence for yourself and your family.
No need to wait for a decision on a residence permit.
No risk it might have been rejected.
No need to apply for extensions afterwards.
Right to start working immediately, but no requirement to work.
Right to study, and exemption from tuition fees.
hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:33 pm
I take it i'm not allowed to count income from another country? Say i have several thousand per year coming in from a business in another country, i can't count that because it's not coming from a Finnish registered business?
You need both sufficient means of support and a reason for moving to Finland when applying for your residence permit.
The problematic part for you is the reason.
Companies won't hire you from abroad for a lower position unless it is worth for them waiting 4 months for a decision on a residence permit on the basis of work.
The decision will be negative if the employment office thinks there might be jobseekers available who could do the job instead of you.
Starting a business in Finland is unlikely to be a valid reason, unless you have already secured customers in Finland or have something that passes "high-growth startup" evaluations.
Moving for studies is the most realistic option, but it requires you to pass the entrance examination and make sufficient progress during your studies.

hbar
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:24 pm

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by hbar » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:19 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:35 pm

Moving for studies is the most realistic option, but it requires you to pass the entrance examination and make sufficient progress during your studies.
Yes i agree this would make the most sense.

I take it one has to do an entrance exam for any study in Finland? Any idea what those are like? I have equivalent qualifications to be able to attend uni in the UK but it would be great to know in advance if there's an exam.

Lastly i know you showed me the chart and added up from the two different pages what i would need to show as 'support' money to study in Finland, but do you have any more concrete sources that show the amount specific to one who is studying? What i mean is the data for 'adult' + 'child 1' + 'child 2' + 'child 3' etc was taken from one page but the calculation of X euro per month for me was taken from another. Any idea if there is a student specific page showing this all in one place so i can clarify?

Also is there any advantage with me being a fully paying student when it comes to enrollment? I know in some UK universities they like international students since they pay more.

betelgeuse
Posts: 4353
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Moving from the UK - i have several options, which is best?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:32 pm

hbar wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:33 pm
I take it i'm not allowed to count income from another country? Say i have several thousand per year coming in from a business in another country, i can't count that because it's not coming from a Finnish registered business?
It doesn’t matter which country supplemental income is from as long as it can be transferred to Finland.


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