Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

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suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 57
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Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:07 pm

Hi all,

Just a warning for those moving to Finland, especially those thinking about "free education"... here's a link that should open your eyes. I plan to equally populate this across FB and such.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10661894

It is sadly in Finnish. As is a lot of the problems. Language barriers ensure that it never comes out!

In summary: No wonder kids are not wanting to go for higher education, it is too expensive.

Related issues: Plummeting healthcare, poor public services, etc. Of course, I don't know why students should be given books, the !"#¤% need the money for taxis, renting the sauna, the retirement-adjustment for themselves, and oh yes, the building renovations, 300 million was it!!!

Now, here's my problem with this: If the taxes I pay do not benefit me or the society (children, pensioners) be it education, healthcare, I don't want to pay taxes, it is NOT a €%&/()= moral obligation. You give me my benefits, I'll give you money in return!

Citizens initiative my rear-end!


Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

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Upphew
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:13 pm

Iirc the study materials for whole high school was something in order of 2500€. So about 100€/month. But at least you will get student allowance to offset that. And if you live somewhere proper, like Sievi, you'll get the study materials for free, so the student allowance is just free money. Even Helsinki did decide to make 2nd degree studies free, but we shall see how that will pan out.

Oh and what about high schoolers under 17 (as you can't get student benefit until you are 17)? Child benefit runs until that age.
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suomynona.yllatot
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:27 pm

Thanks Upphew!

Nope, it runs a bit more than that. Have a friend's daughter in the Tikkurila one. Student allowance really does not cover it at all. They have all the other class expenses, and needs either parents with good (I'm not saying deep) but good pockets.

Schooling to a certain grade is free. I am just torn at the rate at which the %&/() idiots at the parliament are destroying the setup!

I had a hard time accepting that the childrens' hospital was built on private donations, whereas the parliament building got a makeover at 300 million! The new Odi cost, was it a 100 mil.? I am not too sure of that decision to build either (I'll give the benefit of doubt), but then again, I don't care where the F/&%/&% put their asses down, 300 mil was too much! No money for the hospital/ books! But yes, money for idiotic stuff!


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network_engineer
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by network_engineer » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:39 pm

Hi all,

Well, now that the parliament and the Odi were mentioned, I see the point there.

BTW, I do think this is an issue, particularly when you read the news, kids are resorting to gigs to make ends meet. IIRC, there was also sometime ago in the news where especially young people did resort to questionable (!) activities to fund their education, but I think that was at the college level.

What gets to me is the pseudo-citizens-initiative. I was reading the news the posted, and then read this news as well. I.e. Eduskunta aikoo hylätä kansalaisaloitteen maksuttomasta lukio- ja ammattikoulutuksesta. FWIW, I deliberately did not use bold on the Eduskunta! They are not worth it! Annoying! The current garbage in the parliament needs to go. The country needs more loyalty from its leadership! Sure, they aren't as bad as the rest of the garbage spread around the world, but then when did Finland start to compete with the rest of the weirdos.

On a lighter note: I think there might be something to conspiracy structures and so on... how else do you explain seemingly normal people turn into total fools when voted into power? :twisted:

PS.
  • Rough translation for the text in Finnish above: The parliament intends to reject the citizens' initiative for free high and vocational schooling.
  • I know firsthand about the education in the schools here, in Vantaa, in some schools some situations are a disaster, we have a parents meeting soon, things you don't wanna even hear!


Upphew
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:27 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:27 pm
Nope, it runs a bit more than that. Have a friend's daughter in the Tikkurila one. Student allowance really does not cover it at all. They have all the other class expenses, and needs either parents with good (I'm not saying deep) but good pockets.
I'm certain that student allowance doesn't cover it all. And the allowance is monthly, expenses are in the beginning of the course. And some courses seem to need financial efforts too. Students need to pay their concert visits by themselves. Back in my days it was free, iirc.

But books, computer and other "basic" stuff shouldn't run much over that 2½k€. At least according to study done in 2016 where 3-5 students in every Lukio in Vantaa added up their expenses. (oph 189133)
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Upphew
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:39 pm
PS.
  • Rough translation for the text in Finnish above: The parliament intends to reject the citizens' initiative for free high and vocational schooling.
The reason for rejection: initiative was addressed to parliament, not to the government as it should have been. Better learn fast that democracy expects you to do stuff right, not willy-nilly... which I would expect from the institution doing the laws, but it seems that they are just rubber stamps and expect to be fed stuff they can stamp, not stuff that they must word right.
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network_engineer
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by network_engineer » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:01 pm

Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 pm
initiative was addressed to parliament, not to the government as it should have been.
Hi Upphew! :)

OK. Do you mean the students should have rallied in front of some moronic minister and bureaucrat? What incentive would they have to solve an issue, as long as their salary is transferred on time? So, the question then is "Who runs the country?" Some old timer warming the chair in the ministry? Or the parliament? If the former, what would then be the definition of democrazy?
Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 pm
institution doing the laws, but it seems that they are just rubber stamps and expect to be fed stuff they can stamp, not stuff that they must word right.
I suppose that's what the kids wanted: Make a law that gives us equal right to the education.
Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 pm
willy
Willies! Yep, all of them! :twisted:

PS. I see a certain pattern behind this, e.g. tax. The forms are simple, easy, quick service. Benefits, KELA and the like: The more complicated they make it, the less the people inclined to utilise it. Purposes solved!

From an audit background, I've always said, follow the evidence, and follow the money. In this case, follow the money, it starts with the taxpayer, if tax payers ain't happy, you don't get your salaries! :twisted: Sadly, some point ago, there was another poster that had mentioned about the corruption in the system, and the indoctrination of "how great we are", be it Finland or the US (MAGA). Come to think of it, these are all ways to distract the person's individual thinking.

PS. Have you noticed that the pages are constantly failing and get internal server errors!
Last edited by network_engineer on Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Upphew
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:25 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:01 pm
Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:32 pm
initiative was addressed to parliament, not to the government as it should have been.
Hi Upphew! :)

OK. Do you mean the students should have rallied in front of some moronic minister and bureaucrat? What incentive would they have to solve an issue, as long as their salary is transferred on time? So, the question then is "Who runs the country?" Some old timer warming the chair in the ministry? Or the parliament? If the former, what would then be the definition of democrazy?
kansalaisaloite.fi had 53k signatures on the initiative that had the wording parliament instead of government and because of that the committee binned the initiative. Kinda like calling tech support of microsoft and having hanged up as you should have called the Word/Windows/whatever support line.

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:01 pm
PS. Have you noticed that the pages are constantly failing and get internal server errors!
F5 has become my friend...
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network_engineer
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by network_engineer » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:44 pm

Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:25 pm
calling tech support of microsoft and having hanged up as you should have called the Word/Windows/whatever support line.
Dunno if M$ does that, there's a reason I use Apple at home, call them with whatever iPad, iPhone, Mac, Apple TV, heck, even Netflix billing etc. they'll sort it out! And send you an email, and call you to make sure things are ok!
Upphew wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:25 pm
F5 has become my friend...
Great idea! Can we do that with governments as well, I'd like to see a refresh, but if the same stale food starts to stink up, we might need an F5 on steroids. I really hoped this kansalaisaloite would have had some effect on democracy! :)

But seriously, I've started to copy the text into the memory buffer before I press submit... don't know if the post will work or not! I'll email Neil!


Upphew
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by Upphew » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 am

network_engineer wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:44 pm
Great idea! Can we do that with governments as well, I'd like to see a refresh, but if the same stale food starts to stink up, we might need an F5 on steroids. I really hoped this kansalaisaloite would have had some effect on democracy! :)
Grease your fingers, elections are held in April.

Kansalaisaloite is fine. See what happens when politicians blindly follow them, brexit is fine example. Yes politicians can misuse the fine print, but I prefer that over the hivemind that would push through initiatives demanding more services and less taxes.
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agroot
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by agroot » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:18 pm

Can't the students just share the books and schedule different time studying different materials so that only a few books of one subject would be needed? Surely a single human cannot read two books at the same time. A community funded library and each student just borrows one book it needs for class or home.

It feels like a test of collaboration and optimization skills. :D


NeverTooNorth
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Re: Moving to Finland? Free education for kids? Rubbish!

Post by NeverTooNorth » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:44 am

agroot wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:18 pm
Can't the students just share the books and schedule different time studying different materials so that only a few books of one subject would be needed? Surely a single human cannot read two books at the same time. A community funded library and each student just borrows one book it needs for class or home.

It feels like a test of collaboration and optimization skills. :D
And some skills for searching online. What gets into internet stays there forever.
Used books are another option. And absolute majority of the books are available in libraries for free. Not only for borrowing (might be borrowed when needed) but for reading in library facilities.


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