IT offer evaluation

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Savantes89
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:14 am

IT offer evaluation

Post by Savantes89 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am

Hi guys,

I have a potential offer to move to Helsinki as an IT professional and could be netting around €6000 in a specialized niche field as a contractor. Now that may sound a lot for Finland but the problem is that according to my research my partner (support&credit analyst experience) has almost zero chances to land a normal office job without Finnish language skills.

I've also heard that finding housing can also be a pain, the competition is big and the company is not offering support for relocation at all. So I must consider that I would need to stay at a hotel for a few weeks until I find a decent apartment then need to buy all sorts of furniture as furnished apartments are even more rare and ridiculously expensive (~2000€, as we'd need at least 50sq m).

We currently live in a central-eastern EU country and are saving around €2000/month while having a really comfortable life (eating out 2-3 times/week, concerts, travelling every month somewhere). But the traffic here is one of the worst in Europe.

On the other hand I'm curious about Finland/the culture and it seems like a very nice place to live although winters could be depressing.
What are your thoughts on this offer, would you accept it? Will I be able to maintain a similar lifestyle and save more? Is it really that hard to find jobs outside the IT field for foreigners? Will they grant permanent residence to my partner if we are not married?



IT offer evaluation

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:27 am

Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
I have a potential offer to move to Helsinki as an IT professional and could be netting around €6000 in a specialized niche field as a contractor. Now that may sound a lot for Finland
€ 6000 per month after expenses, social security and taxes is a normal IT contracting income in Finland, charging between € 80 and € 100 per hour.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
but the problem is that according to my research my partner (support&credit analyst experience) has almost zero chances to land a normal office job without Finnish language skills.
Your partner will spend the first years unemployed learning the language.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
I've also heard that finding housing can also be a pain, the competition is big and the company is not offering support for relocation at all.
It is not cheap, but not a problem at your income.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
We currently live in a central-eastern EU country and are saving around €2000/month while having a really comfortable life (eating out 2-3 times/week, concerts, travelling every month somewhere).
With € 6000 after taxes you should be in a similar position.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
Will they grant permanent residence to my partner if we are not married?
Permanent residence can be applied for after 4 or 5 years.
2 years of cohabitation are treated like marriage.

paintballsean
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:21 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by paintballsean » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:59 am

Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
Hi guys,

I have a potential offer to move to Helsinki as an IT professional and could be netting around €6000 in a specialized niche field as a contractor. Now that may sound a lot for Finland but the problem is that according to my research my partner (support&credit analyst experience) has almost zero chances to land a normal office job without Finnish language skills.

I've also heard that finding housing can also be a pain, the competition is big and the company is not offering support for relocation at all. So I must consider that I would need to stay at a hotel for a few weeks until I find a decent apartment then need to buy all sorts of furniture as furnished apartments are even more rare and ridiculously expensive (~2000€, as we'd need at least 50sq m).

We currently live in a central-eastern EU country and are saving around €2000/month while having a really comfortable life (eating out 2-3 times/week, concerts, travelling every month somewhere). But the traffic here is one of the worst in Europe.

On the other hand I'm curious about Finland/the culture and it seems like a very nice place to live although winters could be depressing.
What are your thoughts on this offer, would you accept it? Will I be able to maintain a similar lifestyle and save more? Is it really that hard to find jobs outside the IT field for foreigners? Will they grant permanent residence to my partner if we are not married?
I would love to live in Finland and I wish I was given this opportunity. One does not need a big place to live and Helsinki has great public transit and is not as unreasonable for local residents in comparison to me when I was there as a tourist. I suggest IKEA on the furniture front though. I wish I could live there.

fintel
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:00 pm

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by fintel » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am

Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
I've also heard that finding housing can also be a pain, the competition is big and the company is not offering support for relocation at all. So I must consider that I would need to stay at a hotel for a few weeks until I find a decent apartment then need to buy all sorts of furniture as furnished apartments are even more rare and ridiculously expensive (~2000€, as we'd need at least 50sq m).
Tough choice to make. Which central eu country? I find Poland to be a lot more exciting and culturally richer than Finland. If I was saving 2,000 eur per month there, I would hesitate to move. However, if in the long term you wish to settle in Europe, Finland is generally easier to become a citizen of compared to other EU countries including the eastern bloc states. Finland also tops in terms of social security benefits.

Work life balance in Helsinki is one of the best in the world and traffic is not an issue as public transit is great. If you live in Bucharest, Romania (because you mentioned traffic) this move is going to be an upgrade in lifestyle but maybe you will experience initial rocky settlement because of unavailability of housing and learning of new language for the spouse. Finnish is a very difficult language to learn.

If you are near PR in your current country, I would get that PR first before moving to Finland.
Last edited by fintel on Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

inkku
Posts: 701
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by inkku » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:44 am

don't know where your office would be (in Helsinki?) but I think 2000 euros is a lot for renting. Furnished apartments are not common, therefore expensive but 1BR (around 50sqm) unfurnished apartment in Helsinki close to Helsinki centre (within 5kms) will cost you between 1000-1200 euros.

Maaria
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by Maaria » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:59 am

You can do Airbnb until you find an apartment for your own.

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network_engineer
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by network_engineer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm

Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
move to Helsinki as an IT professional and could be netting around €6000 in a specialized niche field as a contractor.
That's just about right. If you are as a contractor, you will need your own company or work through a provider. Remember, you will have to pay off all your tax obligations, insurances etc. So, if it is pure contracting, i.e. no employment relationship, this might be on the lower side, but of course depends on what the "customer" will pay for. E.g. if your IT equipment, SW licenses etc. are paid, then it is just an amount.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
according to my research my partner (support&credit analyst experience) has almost zero chances to land a normal office job without Finnish language skills.
Not so. The selection is not great, but there are international and cross-border banks that they can try with. The hope would not be great, but if there is a great skills set/ experience in the résumé, there are chances. DON'T fool yourself that they will learn the language to professional degree proficiency within 2-3 years, and land up in a job that requires close to native language skills.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
I've also heard that finding housing can also be a pain, the competition is big and the company is not offering support for relocation at all. So I must consider that I would need to stay at a hotel for a few weeks until I find a decent apartment then need to buy all sorts of furniture as furnished apartments are even more rare and ridiculously expensive (~2000€, as we'd need at least 50sq m).
Housing as such is not a pain. You'd need to put down some sort of rental guarantee, so about 1-2 months rent, so about 6K (according to what you state). Make sure you take pictures of any accommodation you move into, and jot down every detail of working/ non-working state of things. Forenom is one such company.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
We currently live in a central-eastern EU country and are saving around €2000/month while having a really comfortable life (eating out 2-3 times/week, concerts, travelling every month somewhere). But the traffic here is one of the worst in Europe.
Straight off, I don't think so. You should get about 3.8K in hand. ~1.4K housing. I can tell you that won't be happening here. At 6K, with tax implications, 2K savings, I doubt it. Specially if you have kids.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
seems like a very nice place
You'd think so. Don't believe everything you hear. There was a good summary in another post, I don't remember which one though. There are good and bad to every location. Some things are good, comparable. Some things are difficult (subtly speaking).
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
to live although winters could be depressing.
Winters wouldn't be your biggest problem. Winters, high taxes, depending on where you are from, you may experience negative reflections (i.e. inability to be considered as part of society) and this has worsened generally in the last few years. But it is not just here, same in England, US. Difficulty in making friends, not being recognised or having to consistently prove yourself, together these could pose challenges. But not impossible.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
What are your thoughts on this offer, would you accept it?
Personally? Straight off? No. Not as a contractor at least. But then again, is it just you + partner? Hard sell, maybe. With 1 kid? I'd seriously look at other options. 2 kids in school going age with hobbies? Nope!

OTOH, if your skillset (?) is as niche as you claim, why would you settle for this?
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
Will I be able to maintain a similar lifestyle and save more?
A resounding no
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
Is it really that hard to find jobs outside the IT field for foreigners?
Without Finnish? No. Not really. But yes. There are cleaning jobs. If you manage Finnish, then there are jobs, I know dentists and doctors from India, nurses from the Philippines/ China/ Sri Lanka but they did study the language. In good faith, I hope I am not mis-interpreting this, but here you go. Look at at the section right below More immigrants needed. It implies that's all that foreigners are good for, and irks me.
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
Will they grant permanent residence to my partner if we are not married?
The marriage thing is immaterial. You need to have lived together for a certain period. Check the Immigration website for details.

Permanent residence depends on the nature of your residence permit thus so far. If you have your own independent company, and can prove a cause for staying, it should not be a problem.
Last edited by network_engineer on Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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network_engineer
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:21 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by network_engineer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:29 pm

fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
Which central eu country? I find Poland to be a lot more exciting and culturally richer than Finland. If I was saving 2,000 eur per month there, I would hesitate to move.
:thumbsup: Correct.
fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
Finland is generally easier to become a citizen of compared to other EU countries including the eastern bloc states.
E.g. some countries do not have the language requirement, e.g. IIRC, Sweden is one of them. Five years residence (2 for Nordic citizens).
fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
Finland also tops in terms of social security benefits.
No, it is good enough, but cannot be compared. Check groups like Apuna on FB to see/ read some of the more dire circumstances.
fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
Work life balance in Helsinki is one of the best in the world
:thumbsup: Often depends on the company, and sometimes the manager, but yes, this is true.
fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
public transit is great.
Depends on where you live. If you live in the city centre/ close to it, yes. Any place outside Ring III, not so. The other thing, a lot of the times, trains get delayed/ cancelled due to snow etc. But this is a weather issue, but if you need to go pick your kids... :(
fintel wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:56 am
If you are near PR in your current country, I would get that PR first before moving to Finland.
Yes, particularly if you are in a EU country. Is the EU Long Term Residence permit still available? Get that before you move.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by FinlandGirl » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:27 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:20 pm
Savantes89 wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:17 am
We currently live in a central-eastern EU country and are saving around €2000/month while having a really comfortable life (eating out 2-3 times/week, concerts, travelling every month somewhere). But the traffic here is one of the worst in Europe.
Straight off, I don't think so. You should get about 3.8K in hand. ~1.4K housing. I can tell you that won't be happening here. At 6K, with tax implications, 2K savings, I doubt it. Specially if you have kids.
My understanding is that the 6k were after taxes and social security, which would be a normal amount for IT consulting in Finland.
6k before taxes would be 40 Euro per hour, for specialized IT consulting such a low rate would be exploitation.

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network_engineer
Posts: 738
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Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by network_engineer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:24 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:27 pm
6k were after taxes and social security, which would be a normal amount for IT consulting in Finland.
6k before taxes would be 40 Euro per hour, for specialized IT consulting such a low rate would be exploitation.
I am not sure if "netting" in the OPs post was correct. In my mind, if we take ~100e/ hr * 7,5 hrs =750e / day * 20 days/ month = 15.000e. If that is the case, then 6k in hand (net) seems a bit low after taxes.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by FinlandGirl » Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:53 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:24 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:27 pm
6k were after taxes and social security, which would be a normal amount for IT consulting in Finland.
6k before taxes would be 40 Euro per hour, for specialized IT consulting such a low rate would be exploitation.
I am not sure if "netting" in the OPs post was correct. In my mind, if we take ~100e/ hr * 7,5 hrs =750e / day * 20 days/ month = 15.000e. If that is the case, then 6k in hand (net) seems a bit low after taxes.
75-80 Euro per hour and an appropriate (not minimal) YEL level should give around 6k after expenses (accountant costs 2k per year), YEL and taxes when having full-time work guaranteed.

6k before taxes would mean that the OP thought it was a great offer, but in reality it is half the normal price.
This would be a huge red flag.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3280
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: IT offer evaluation

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:50 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:53 pm
75-80 Euro per hour and an appropriate (not minimal) YEL level should give around 6k after expenses (accountant costs 2k per year), YEL and taxes when having full-time work guaranteed.

6k before taxes would mean that the OP thought it was a great offer, but in reality it is half the normal price.
This would be a huge red flag.
You can get accounting for half that price as a sole trader.

https://www.holvi.com/fi/lp/yrittajapalvelu-1/


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