Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

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diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm

Hi folks,
Long ago I was interested in moving to Finland, but ended up moving to Hungary in 2016 from the USA. Next year I will be getting long-term EU residency (after 5 years), and I am wondering about the particulars of moving to FInland after that occurs. I have substantial income from pensions in the USA, but I am curious if the permit from a long-term EU resident is for 5 years, and if so, if one is eligible for public healthcare after moving? Thanks in advance for anyone that may have information, can't seem to find information about this from the internet.



Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 401
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

diablogun wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm
Long ago I was interested in moving to Finland, but ended up moving to Hungary in 2016 from the USA. Next year I will be getting long-term EU residency (after 5 years), and I am wondering about the particulars of moving to FInland after that occurs.
https://migri.fi/en/residence-permit-in-finland

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm
diablogun wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm
Long ago I was interested in moving to Finland, but ended up moving to Hungary in 2016 from the USA. Next year I will be getting long-term EU residency (after 5 years), and I am wondering about the particulars of moving to FInland after that occurs.
https://migri.fi/en/residence-permit-in-finland
Thanks Finlandgirl, I've seen that, but the unique nature of being a long-term EU resident from a non-eu country means that it's implemented in different ways across the EU. IN Sweden they give you a 5-year permit with health insurance and and the ability to work, while in Austria you have to buy private insurance and can't work after moving there (but your family can, strangely). I'm wondering how it is addressed by Finland, how long does it last, can one work under "other" reasons for the permit, would my family be covered under the state insurance, etc?
I have substantial pension and assets, just want to make sure it is a good fit for us.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 401
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu May 07, 2020 5:56 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm
diablogun wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm
Long ago I was interested in moving to Finland, but ended up moving to Hungary in 2016 from the USA. Next year I will be getting long-term EU residency (after 5 years), and I am wondering about the particulars of moving to FInland after that occurs.
https://migri.fi/en/residence-permit-in-finland
Thanks Finlandgirl, I've seen that, but the unique nature of being a long-term EU resident from a non-eu country means that it's implemented in different ways across the EU. IN Sweden they give you a 5-year permit with health insurance and and the ability to work, while in Austria you have to buy private insurance and can't work after moving there (but your family can, strangely). I'm wondering how it is addressed by Finland, how long does it last,
First residence permits are usually granted for one year.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
can one work under "other" reasons for the permit,
The residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work, and it is not granted for "sufficient funds".
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
just want to make sure it is a good fit for us.
Apart from the residence permit question, is everything else a good fit for you?
Outside IT you have to be able to work in Finnish if you want to find a job.
Culturally, what the rest of the world calls "social distancing" is how Finns behaved before COVID-19. Finns are not annoyingly social people like Swedes or Norwegians. "Someone said that the comfortable personal space between strangers is approximately 1,5 meters." The new distance markers on the floor at the cashier in the supermarket feel like the natural distance, you would anyway not want to stand closer to the stranger in front of you.

betelgeuse
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by betelgeuse » Thu May 07, 2020 6:54 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
Thanks Finlandgirl, I've seen that, but the unique nature of being a long-term EU resident from a non-eu country means that it's implemented in different ways across the EU.
In Finland the benefits are quite small. As the Migri link says it doesn't suffice on its own to get a residence permit to Finland.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
I have substantial pension and assets, just want to make sure it is a good fit for us.
With the assets it could be an option to setup a company and apply as an entrepreneur.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 5:56 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
Thanks Finlandgirl, I've seen that, but the unique nature of being a long-term EU resident from a non-eu country means that it's implemented in different ways across the EU. IN Sweden they give you a 5-year permit with health insurance and and the ability to work, while in Austria you have to buy private insurance and can't work after moving there (but your family can, strangely). I'm wondering how it is addressed by Finland, how long does it last,
First residence permits are usually granted for one year.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
can one work under "other" reasons for the permit,
The residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work, and it is not granted for "sufficient funds".
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:55 pm
just want to make sure it is a good fit for us.
Apart from the residence permit question, is everything else a good fit for you?
Outside IT you have to be able to work in Finnish if you want to find a job.
Culturally, what the rest of the world calls "social distancing" is how Finns behaved before COVID-19. Finns are not annoyingly social people like Swedes or Norwegians. "Someone said that the comfortable personal space between strangers is approximately 1,5 meters." The new distance markers on the floor at the cashier in the supermarket feel like the natural distance, you would anyway not want to stand closer to the stranger in front of you.
HI again,

As per the EU directive on long-term residency, every country must allow long-term EU residents to live there if they desire, but the specifics are up to each country to implement. Finland can issue whatever residency they want, but they cannot disallow (unless for security reasons) long term Eu residents from coming there. The funny thing is, each country does this a little differently, and because the Long term eu status is pretty rare, you don't see much about it. It took me two months to get the exact answer in Sweden as to how it is handled permit-wise.

I don't have to work (I'm retired and 49), but if the opportunity arises to do some English editing/writing I might be interested. I speak Swedish and want my kids to learn it, so it wouldn't be necessary to conquer your insanely difficult language for purposes of citizenship later.

Where do you live? I have been looking at any of the various bi-lingual municipalities to settle down in, so the kids can go to Swedish school. Thanks for your answers, by the way :-)

Ithink the Finns I've met are wonderful, and the truth is I'm kind of boring and quiet, so I should fit right in :-)

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fintel
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by fintel » Thu May 07, 2020 7:28 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm
I have been looking at any of the various bi-lingual municipalities to settle down in, so the kids can go to Swedish school. Thanks for your answers, by the way :-)
Aland Islands is great if you speak Swedish. It's a little Island between Sweden and Finland. It's part of Finland for immigration purposes but everyone speaks Swedish there. You can become a Finnish citizen by passing a Swedish language exam.
Image ulkomaalaisella henkilöä

betelgeuse
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by betelgeuse » Thu May 07, 2020 7:46 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm
As per the EU directive on long-term residency, every country must allow long-term EU residents to live there if they desire, but the specifics are up to each country to implement. Finland can issue whatever residency they want, but they cannot disallow (unless for security reasons) long term Eu residents from coming there. The funny thing is, each country does this a little differently, and because the Long term eu status is pretty rare, you don't see much about it. It took me two months to get the exact answer in Sweden as to how it is handled permit-wise.
Indeed the situation is quite interesting. I looked into details a bit more. Normally other grounds for residence permits under Finnish rules are quite hard to satisfy but as you say for EU long-term resident other grounds is defined as basically anything goes:

"Direktiivissä ei ole tarkemmin määritelty, mitä momentin 3 kohdassa mainitut muut syyt voisivat olla. Mitään muita rajoituksia ei aseteta kuin se, että ulkomaalainen ei vaaranna yleistä järjestystä tai turvallisuutta ja että hänellä on vakaat ja säännölliset varat, jotka riittävät hänen itsensä ja perheenjäsentensä elättämiseen turvautumatta jäsenvaltion sosiaaliturvaan. Syy voi siis olla mikä tahansa."

https://finlex.fi/fi/esitykset/he/2006/20060094

I didn't look if there's ECJ judgments on the matter.
diablogun wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 8:42 pm
I have substantial income from pensions in the USA, but I am curious if the permit from a long-term EU resident is for 5 years, and if so, if one is eligible for public healthcare after moving?
Finnish public healthcare is operated based on residency so yes.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 401
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu May 07, 2020 8:19 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:46 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm
As per the EU directive on long-term residency, every country must allow long-term EU residents to live there if they desire, but the specifics are up to each country to implement. Finland can issue whatever residency they want, but they cannot disallow (unless for security reasons) long term Eu residents from coming there. The funny thing is, each country does this a little differently, and because the Long term eu status is pretty rare, you don't see much about it. It took me two months to get the exact answer in Sweden as to how it is handled permit-wise.
Indeed the situation is quite interesting. I looked into details a bit more. Normally other grounds for residence permits under Finnish rules are quite hard to satisfy but as you say for EU long-term resident other grounds is defined as basically anything goes:

"Direktiivissä ei ole tarkemmin määritelty, mitä momentin 3 kohdassa mainitut muut syyt voisivat olla. Mitään muita rajoituksia ei aseteta kuin se, että ulkomaalainen ei vaaranna yleistä järjestystä tai turvallisuutta ja että hänellä on vakaat ja säännölliset varat, jotka riittävät hänen itsensä ja perheenjäsentensä elättämiseen turvautumatta jäsenvaltion sosiaaliturvaan. Syy voi siis olla mikä tahansa."

https://finlex.fi/fi/esitykset/he/2006/20060094
Interesting.
I do not see it stating that if the residence permit is granted on other grounds there would be a full right to work.
My reading is that the other grounds would always be temporary, and therefore also provide no path to citizenship.
What happens when the long-term EU residency in the other country expires?

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 9:44 pm

fintel wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:28 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm
I have been looking at any of the various bi-lingual municipalities to settle down in, so the kids can go to Swedish school. Thanks for your answers, by the way :-)
Aland Islands is great if you speak Swedish. It's a little Island between Sweden and Finland. It's part of Finland for immigration purposes but everyone speaks Swedish there. You can become a Finnish citizen by passing a Swedish language exam.
It's worth a thought. Is it a nice area?

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 8:19 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:46 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 7:04 pm
As per the EU directive on long-term residency, every country must allow long-term EU residents to live there if they desire, but the specifics are up to each country to implement. Finland can issue whatever residency they want, but they cannot disallow (unless for security reasons) long term Eu residents from coming there. The funny thing is, each country does this a little differently, and because the Long term eu status is pretty rare, you don't see much about it. It took me two months to get the exact answer in Sweden as to how it is handled permit-wise.
Indeed the situation is quite interesting. I looked into details a bit more. Normally other grounds for residence permits under Finnish rules are quite hard to satisfy but as you say for EU long-term resident other grounds is defined as basically anything goes:

"Direktiivissä ei ole tarkemmin määritelty, mitä momentin 3 kohdassa mainitut muut syyt voisivat olla. Mitään muita rajoituksia ei aseteta kuin se, että ulkomaalainen ei vaaranna yleistä järjestystä tai turvallisuutta ja että hänellä on vakaat ja säännölliset varat, jotka riittävät hänen itsensä ja perheenjäsentensä elättämiseen turvautumatta jäsenvaltion sosiaaliturvaan. Syy voi siis olla mikä tahansa."

https://finlex.fi/fi/esitykset/he/2006/20060094
Interesting.
I do not see it stating that if the residence permit is granted on other grounds there would be a full right to work.
My reading is that the other grounds would always be temporary, and therefore also provide no path to citizenship.
What happens when the long-term EU residency in the other country expires?
The gaining country has to return the LOng term EU residency to you if you choose to leave during your 5 yeas. Otherwise, they must issue you a new EU long term resident car after you've been there 5 years. If the five years fulfills the requirement for citizenship, you can apply for that.

https://eapmigrationpanel.org/en/materi ... -residents

"Long-term resident status

Member States must recognise long-term resident status after five years' continuous legal residence. Absences from the Member State for periods of less than six consecutive months (and not exceeding ten months in total within the five-year period) or for specific reasons provided for by national law (e.g. military service, secondment for work purposes, serious illness, maternity, research or studies) will be regarded as not interrupting the period of residence.

In order to obtain long-term resident status, Non-EU Member Country nationals must prove that they have:

stable resources sufficient to live without recourse to the social assistance system of the Member State concerned and
sickness insurance
for themselves and their family (if dependent).

Member States may require Non-EU Member Country nationals to comply with further integration conditions (such as sufficient knowledge of a national language of the Member State concerned).

Member States may refuse to grant long-term resident status on grounds of public policy or public security.

The competent authority must take a decision on whether to grant long-term resident status no more than six months after the application is lodged. Decisions to reject an application must be notified in writing to the person concerned in accordance with the procedures under national legislation, stating the reasons and indicating the redress procedures available and the deadline for action on the part of the applicant. Long-term residents will receive a resident permit which is standard for all Member States, permanent and renewable automatically.

Regarding accepting long term residents

"Right of residence in the other Member States

A long-term resident may exercise the right of residence, for a period exceeding three months, in a Member State other than the one which granted him the status, subject to compliance with certain conditions laid down in this proposal, including:

exercise of an economic activity in an employed or self-employed capacity; or
pursuit of studies or vocational training; or
other purposes.
However, a Member State may limit the number of residence permits if, at the time of the adoption of this Directive, limitations for the admission of Non-EU Member Country nationals are already set out in existing national law. At the same time, for reasons of labour market policy, Member States may give preference to Union citizens.

The above conditions do not concern employees posted for the purpose of cross-border provision of services or providers of cross-border services.

When the application for a residence permit is lodged, the competent authorities in the second Member State may require the presentation of certain documents (such as the long-term residence permit, an identity document, an employment contract, documentation with regard to appropriate accommodation, etc.) and evidence of stable and regular resources and medical insurance.

The family members of the long-term resident may accompany him to the second Member State or join him there on condition that they already formed a family in the first Member State. If this is not the case, Directive 2003/86/EC on the right to family reunification applies.

The second Member State may refuse applications for residence only where there is an actual threat to public policy, public security or public health. In the case of public health, the Directive allows Member States to require a medical examination in order to certify that the persons in question do not suffer from any diseases that are the subject of protective provisions in the host country. It also provides for a series of procedural guarantees such as the statutory period for examining applications for residence permits, the arrangements for notifying interested parties, redress procedures and the conditions governing expulsion.

As soon as they enter the second Member State, long-term residents enjoy all the benefits which they enjoyed in the first Member State under the same conditions as nationals.

Long-term residents living in the second Member State will retain their status in the first Member State until they have acquired the same status in the second Member State. If they so wish, they may, after being legally resident in the second Member State for five years, apply to be considered as long-term residents in that Member State.

FinlandGirl
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu May 07, 2020 10:52 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
The gaining country has to return the LOng term EU residency to you if you choose to leave during your 5 yeas. Otherwise, they must issue you a new EU long term resident car after you've been there 5 years.
This is true for people who are working in the second country.
My reading of 2003/109/EC is that students are not eligible after 5 years.
If you come to Finland for other purposes I do not see where the Finnish Aliens Act implements this.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
If the five years fulfills the requirement for citizenship, you can apply for that.
5 years on continuous residence permits does fulfil the requirement for citizenship.
5 years on temporary residence permits does not fulfil the requirement for citizenship.

Citizenship requirements are outside the scope of EU legislation.

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fintel
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by fintel » Thu May 07, 2020 11:01 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:44 pm
It's worth a thought. Is it a nice area?
Yes, Aland is nice and a couple of hours boat ride to Sweden. People believe they live in Sweden. It's a strange feeling because all the banks and institutions are Finnish.

I would try for Hungarian citizenship if I were you and stay where you are at the moment.
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diablogun
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 11:39 pm

fintel wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:01 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:44 pm
It's worth a thought. Is it a nice area?
Yes, Aland is nice and a couple of hours boat ride to Sweden. People believe they live in Sweden. It's a strange feeling because all the banks and institutions are Finnish.

I would try for Hungarian citizenship if I were you and stay where you are at the moment.
No, the requirement for Hungarian citizenship is 8 years, and the language is too hard for my old brain (you need to speak it very well to become a citizen :-)

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fintel
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Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by fintel » Thu May 07, 2020 11:45 pm

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:39 pm
No, the requirement for Hungarian citizenship is 8 years, and the language is too hard for my old brain (you need to speak it very well to become a citizen :-)
I would then move to Finland and keep Hungary EU residency valid for another 5 years (renew again for a total of 10 years) while I live in Finland and count down time to citizenship. Hungary will act as a back up (legal proxy) state while you finish your 5 year term in Finland.
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