Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

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diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:52 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
The gaining country has to return the LOng term EU residency to you if you choose to leave during your 5 yeas. Otherwise, they must issue you a new EU long term resident car after you've been there 5 years.
This is true for people who are working in the second country.
My reading of 2003/109/EC is that students are not eligible after 5 years.
If you come to Finland for other purposes I do not see where the Finnish Aliens Act implements this.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
If the five years fulfills the requirement for citizenship, you can apply for that.
5 years on continuous residence permits does fulfil the requirement for citizenship.
5 years on temporary residence permits does not fulfil the requirement for citizenship.

Citizenship requirements are outside the scope of EU legislation.
It's true for anyone who gets a permit from a second country from the initial EU long term residency. Whoever has that will not apply for a student permit, as that is most often not considered for purposes of residency. The EU directive is very clear that one can get a new long term Resident card from the next country after 5 years. It's rare that these are used for mobility. I think, because it is a pain to have to explain the EU directive to each successive country.
You did answer the question about the health insurance, which is great. Highly appreciated.



Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

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FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri May 08, 2020 12:35 am

diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:52 pm
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
The gaining country has to return the LOng term EU residency to you if you choose to leave during your 5 yeas. Otherwise, they must issue you a new EU long term resident car after you've been there 5 years.
This is true for people who are working in the second country.
My reading of 2003/109/EC is that students are not eligible after 5 years.
If you come to Finland for other purposes I do not see where the Finnish Aliens Act implements this.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:52 pm
If the five years fulfills the requirement for citizenship, you can apply for that.
5 years on continuous residence permits does fulfil the requirement for citizenship.
5 years on temporary residence permits does not fulfil the requirement for citizenship.

Citizenship requirements are outside the scope of EU legislation.
It's true for anyone who gets a permit from a second country from the initial EU long term residency. Whoever has that will not apply for a student permit, as that is most often not considered for purposes of residency.
It is weird that "other purposes" in 2003/109/EC seems to give more rights than studies.
This is where the Finnish Aliens Act differs.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
The EU directive is very clear that one can get a new long term Resident card from the next country after 5 years.
What article of 2003/109/EC are you referring to?
Article 23 says that in the next country the normal rules apply, which exclude students.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
It's rare that these are used for mobility. I think, because it is a pain to have to explain the EU directive to each successive country.
Usually people are not so rich that they can live without working.
It is not obvious how the EU directive makes a difference for people who are applying for a Finnish residence permit based on work. Even the rejection of a residence permit if the job could be done by an EU citizen instead of you seems to be permitted by 2003/109/EC.

Someone who is eligible for EU long term residency in Finland would also be eligible for citizenship.
Finnish citizenship gives the right to live and work in all EU countries without having to apply for a residence permit first.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:35 am
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:52 pm


This is true for people who are working in the second country.
My reading of 2003/109/EC is that students are not eligible after 5 years.
If you come to Finland for other purposes I do not see where the Finnish Aliens Act implements this.



5 years on continuous residence permits does fulfil the requirement for citizenship.
5 years on temporary residence permits does not fulfil the requirement for citizenship.

Citizenship requirements are outside the scope of EU legislation.
It's true for anyone who gets a permit from a second country from the initial EU long term residency. Whoever has that will not apply for a student permit, as that is most often not considered for purposes of residency.
It is weird that "other purposes" in 2003/109/EC seems to give more rights than studies.
This is where the Finnish Aliens Act differs.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
The EU directive is very clear that one can get a new long term Resident card from the next country after 5 years.
What article of 2003/109/EC are you referring to?
Article 23 says that in the next country the normal rules apply, which exclude students.
diablogun wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 11:48 pm
It's rare that these are used for mobility. I think, because it is a pain to have to explain the EU directive to each successive country.
Usually people are not so rich that they can live without working.
It is not obvious how the EU directive makes a difference for people who are applying for a Finnish residence permit based on work. Even the rejection of a residence permit if the job could be done by an EU citizen instead of you seems to be permitted by 2003/109/EC.

Someone who is eligible for EU long term residency in Finland would also be eligible for citizenship.
Finnish citizenship gives the right to live and work in all EU countries without having to apply for a residence permit first.
I just read that gargantuan link you sent, and it is pretty enlightening. It even sets forth from Finland's set of laws what can be granted as a permit, as well as what types of support can be counted (pensions is in there) when applying. It's clear they have latitude in which type of residency they can grant, and that it should be done while applying for abroad. It's good to know after 5 years one could go straight to citizenship and skip another long term eu permit.
As to the initial directive
"Long-term residents living in the second Member State will retain their status in the first Member State until they have acquired the same status in the second Member State. If they so wish, they may, after being legally resident in the second Member State for five years, apply to be considered as long-term residents in that Member State.

My questions are answered, at least the healthcare one and that one can get citizenship in finland after 5 years. Being able to work is going to be up to whoever takes my application. I guess.

Thanks for taking so much time to look into this.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri May 08, 2020 12:59 am

diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
As to the initial directive
"Long-term residents living in the second Member State will retain their status in the first Member State until they have acquired the same status in the second Member State. If they so wish, they may, after being legally resident in the second Member State for five years, apply to be considered as long-term residents in that Member State.
This is just a website, and at least for students this statement seems to be incorrect.
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
Being able to work is going to be up to whoever takes my application. I guess.
It will be up to what you apply for, the residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:59 am
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
As to the initial directive
"Long-term residents living in the second Member State will retain their status in the first Member State until they have acquired the same status in the second Member State. If they so wish, they may, after being legally resident in the second Member State for five years, apply to be considered as long-term residents in that Member State.
This is just a website, and at least for students this statement seems to be incorrect.
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
Being able to work is going to be up to whoever takes my application. I guess.
It will be up to what you apply for, the residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work.
Definitely a contradiction for students in that. I'm curious why the EU doesn't make this easier, a la the Green card in the USA. Even with this residency, as you noted moving around is only viable for someone with a good deal of money.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri May 08, 2020 8:16 am

diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 am
I'm curious why the EU doesn't make this easier, a la the Green card in the USA.
The EU are 27 national governments plus the European Parliament.
As you might have noticed different EU countries have quite diverse immigration policies.

Upphew
Posts: 10612
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by Upphew » Fri May 08, 2020 9:26 am

diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 am
I'm curious why the EU doesn't make this easier, a la the Green card in the USA.
EU tries to make it easier. One reason for Brexit. So I don't think there will be hard push to easier migration.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 9:35 am

Upphew wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:26 am
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:07 am
I'm curious why the EU doesn't make this easier, a la the Green card in the USA.
EU tries to make it easier. One reason for Brexit. So I don't think there will be hard push to easier migration.
I get that, but I think the UK wasn't part of that directive in any case. It's just a matter of mobility for those that are legal and a functioning part of various economies. As an American, it's a little weird to have limited mobility when you're "on the books" and legitimate.

That said, I'm getting eager to move. Where are your favorite places around Helsinki to live?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am

diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:35 am
As an American, it's a little weird to have limited mobility when you're "on the books" and legitimate.
As an European, it's a little weird that citizens of Mexico do not have the legal right of mobility to the US,
America and Europe have similar numbers of independent countries.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri May 08, 2020 10:27 am

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Last edited by betelgeuse on Fri May 08, 2020 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri May 08, 2020 10:30 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:59 am
It will be up to what you apply for, the residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work.
A continuous residence permit based on other grounds for a EU long term residence permit holder does give an unlimited right to work. It comes from section 78 subsection 3 point 1 of the Aliens Act.

https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2004/20040301#L5P78

See below that you might also get a temporary instead of a continuous permit.
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
My questions are answered, at least the healthcare one and that one can get citizenship in finland after 5 years.
Under section 49 a the residence permit will either be continuous or temporary based on the application.

"Oleskelulupa myönnetään tilapäisenä tai jatkuvana ottaen huomioon tarkoitetun oleskelun luonne"

With a continuous permit most people are eligible for citizenship in four years (the strong ties requirement is quite easy to satisfy). With a temporary permit it will later need to be converted to continuous before being eligible for citizenship (time with a temporary permit counts only 50%).

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 11:30 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:35 am
As an American, it's a little weird to have limited mobility when you're "on the books" and legitimate.
As an European, it's a little weird that citizens of Mexico do not have the legal right of mobility to the US,
America and Europe have similar numbers of independent countries.
There's no equivalency whatsoever. There is zero right conferred to move and work between either the usa or Mexico. They are two separate sovereign countries. The illegals in the usa break the law to enter, then break the law to work off the books. It's not a good way of doing things.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 11:32 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:30 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:59 am
It will be up to what you apply for, the residence permit on other grounds does not give a general right to work.
A continuous residence permit based on other grounds for a EU long term residence permit holder does give an unlimited right to work. It comes from section 78 subsection 3 point 1 of the Aliens Act.

https://finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2004/20040301#L5P78

See below that you might also get a temporary instead of a continuous permit.
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 12:49 am
My questions are answered, at least the healthcare one and that one can get citizenship in finland after 5 years.
Under section 49 a the residence permit will either be continuous or temporary based on the application.

"Oleskelulupa myönnetään tilapäisenä tai jatkuvana ottaen huomioon tarkoitetun oleskelun luonne"

With a continuous permit most people are eligible for citizenship in four years (the strong ties requirement is quite easy to satisfy). With a temporary permit it will later need to be converted to continuous before being eligible for citizenship (time with a temporary permit counts only 50%).
Very good news. I hope we get the continuous version, but my sons will not be so happy when their time comes for conscription i think!

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 am

diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:30 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:35 am
As an American, it's a little weird to have limited mobility when you're "on the books" and legitimate.
As an European, it's a little weird that citizens of Mexico do not have the legal right of mobility to the US,
America and Europe have similar numbers of independent countries.
There's no equivalency whatsoever. There is zero right conferred to move and work between either the usa or Mexico. They are two separate sovereign countries.
Hungary and Finland are two separate sovereign countries.

diablogun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:05 am

Re: Anyone come to Finland as a EU long-term resident?

Post by diablogun » Fri May 08, 2020 11:44 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 am
diablogun wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:30 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:10 am


As an European, it's a little weird that citizens of Mexico do not have the legal right of mobility to the US,
America and Europe have similar numbers of independent countries.
There's no equivalency whatsoever. There is zero right conferred to move and work between either the usa or Mexico. They are two separate sovereign countries.
Hungary and Finland are two separate sovereign countries.
Two separate countries joined in a union that allows free movement of citizens and the right to work. Nothing whatsoever like the US and Mexico.


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