Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

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Xzero
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Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by Xzero » Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 am

Hej, dear fellows after making me wait for 2 months, immigration police today handed over decision to me which was negative. The reason cited was that they tried to contact my employer and the employer did not respond back. Amazing isn't it. My salary was higher than required salary. Contract was permanent and unlimited but my dear supervisor was may be having party time.

Now I have drafted an appeal in English. My question is that can we submit appeal in English? I am intending to take no lawyer as my case is pretty straightforward. The fault of Mr. Z can't become punishment of Mr. A.

Can I appeal in English? I have to email it to migri at migri.com. Has anyone tried to appeal him/herself against negative work based extended decision? Please share your experience and guide please.

BR



Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

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FinlandGirl
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon May 11, 2020 10:33 am

Xzero wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 am
immigration police today handed over decision to me which was negative. The reason cited was that they tried to contact my employer and the employer did not respond back. Amazing isn't it. My salary was higher than required salary. Contract was permanent and unlimited but my dear supervisor was may be having party time.
What does your supervisor say regarding this?
Xzero wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 am
I am intending to take no lawyer as my case is pretty straightforward. The fault of Mr. Z can't become punishment of Mr. A.
The case is pretty straightforward when the only reason for granting a residence permit to Mr. A would have been the salary paid by Mr. Z.

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rinso
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by rinso » Mon May 11, 2020 12:36 pm

The fault of Mr. Z can't become punishment of Mr. A.
It seems that the cooperation of mr.Z is necessary for your permit. As long as they don't get an ok from mr.Z, migri (or the court of appeal) will not grant you a permit. Are you sure mr.Z is still on board? In the present situation, he might rethink his options. And ignoring migri might be an easy way to wriggle out of a contract.
Before you sent the appeal, contact mr.Z, so you can explain in the appeal why it went wrong.

Officially the appeal must be in Finnish. But many judges are willing to look at one in English.

Xzero
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by Xzero » Mon May 11, 2020 1:18 pm

The Mr. Z says that he recieved no email from the immigration or TE office and the union is also looking in to it.

He is submitting it in writing to be submitted as proof in the court.

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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm

Xzero wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 am
Can I appeal in English? I have to email it to migri at migri.com. Has anyone tried to appeal him/herself against negative work based extended decision?
It's migri.fi for finnish immigration. migri.com is an adult entertainment site. :D

Translate your appeal to Finnish language or have a lawyer prepare the whole thing if you are serious about this permit. The judge would probably appreciate an appeal in Finnish language more than English language. What it comes down to in court room situations is that you claim that according to some section of the Aliens Act, that migri had the responsibility to inform you of their inability to contact the employer and demand further contact information and because they did not do that, you are entitled to a second review and a new decision.
Last edited by fintel on Mon May 11, 2020 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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betelgeuse
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by betelgeuse » Mon May 11, 2020 8:36 pm

fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:30 pm
The judge would probably appreciate an appeal in Finnish language more than English language. What it comes down to in court room situations is that you claim that according to some section of the The Finnish Aliens Act 1991, that migri had the responsibility to inform you of their inability to contact the employer and demand further contact information and because they did not do that, you are entitled to a second review and a new decision.
There's no such Act. The current Aliens Act is 30.4.2004/301 with amendments. It's unlikely that there would be oral arguments.
Xzero wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 am
Now I have drafted an appeal in English. My question is that can we submit appeal in English?
There doesn't seem to be a de jure right to use English. However, de facto they are likely to understand and it accept it.
If they don't, they would let you know and ask to translate. If you want to avoid guessing, easiest to just ask the customer service for the relevant administrative court.

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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 8:57 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:36 pm
There's no such Act. The current Aliens Act is 30.4.2004/301 with amendments. It's unlikely that there would be oral arguments.

There doesn't seem to be a de jure right to use English. However, de facto they are likely to understand and it accept it.
If they don't, they would let you know and ask to translate. If you want to avoid guessing, easiest to just ask the customer service for the relevant administrative court.
Yes, I meant the current Aliens Act. A legal appeal should be prepared by a lawyer. I would imagine you cannot simply write a paragraph or two in English and say Mr. X did this and Mr. Y did that, and hope that the judge would agree with you. You have to find an error of the law where you are Party 1 and migri is Party 2.
Last edited by fintel on Tue May 12, 2020 2:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
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FinlandGirl
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon May 11, 2020 9:41 pm

fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:57 pm

Appeal prohibition
The following decisions issued under this Act are not subject to appeal:
9) advance information given by an employment office under section 78; (619/2006)

I am not sure what this advance information is all about
If you do not understand what all the law, it would be better if you would leave replying to the people who actually understand the law.
fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:57 pm
If TE office used this section 78 to issue their opinion
Read the section of the law you quoted.
Try to understand the section of the law you quoted.
You are intelligent enough to figure out yourself why section 78 is not applicable.

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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 9:46 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:41 pm
If you do not understand what all the law, it would be better if you would leave replying to the people who actually understand the law.
Who else finds FinlandGirl rude and arrogant?
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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 10:04 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:41 pm
If you do not understand what all the law, it would be better if you would leave replying to the people who actually understand the law.
If you understand the law so well why don't you write an appeal for the OP?

Also why don't you petition to your government to stop deporting fathers of 3 year old Finnish girls?
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betelgeuse
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by betelgeuse » Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm

fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:57 pm
Yes, I meant the current Aliens Act. A legal appeal should be prepared by a lawyer. I would imagine you cannot simply write a paragraph or two in English and say Mr. X did this and Mr. Y did that, and hope that the judge would agree with you. You have to find an error of the law where you are Party 1 and migri is Party 2.
Finnish administrative appeals are supposed to be accessible to laypeople. One of the constitutional rights is access to courts. I am not saying it's necessarily the case here (hard to say without seeing the actual Migri decision) but I can definitely give examples of situations in which short appeals would likely succeed. Of course lawyers are helpful but their use is up to cost-benefit analysis.
fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:57 pm
Section 191
Appeal prohibition
The following decisions issued under this Act are not subject to appeal:
9) advance information given by an employment office under section 78; (619/2006)

I am not sure what this advance information is all about but usually TE Office attempts to contact the employer and in case they don't reply then they issue their opinion to migri and then migri decides what to do. If TE office used this section 78 to issue their opinion then there is no right to appeal, otherwise you may get lucky.
This only means that you appeal the findings of TE Office as part the Migri decision. You can't appeal separately.

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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 10:38 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:20 pm

Finnish administrative appeals are supposed to be accessible to laypeople. One of the constitutional rights is access to courts. I am not saying it's necessarily the case here (hard to say without seeing the actual Migri decision) but I can definitely give examples of situations in which short appeals would likely succeed. Of course lawyers are helpful but their use is up to cost-benefit analysis.
Constitution is for citizens I would imagine and not for non-citizens. In some EU countries, if the resident permit is refused, you have a right to appeal to a supervisor of immigration and that's your first appeal and that's it! If that appeal is refused you have to leave the country. For example, in Poland, the Border guard does not wait for your appeal to the court to come back with a decision. They move forward with the deportation and if the court decides in your favor, then you have to find your way from your own country back to Poland. You cannot physically attend court there with a refused decision.
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fintel
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by fintel » Mon May 11, 2020 10:59 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:41 pm
If you do not understand what all the law, it would be better if you would leave replying to the people who actually understand the law.
Let's leave the law questions to FinlandGirl :D

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betelgeuse
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by betelgeuse » Mon May 11, 2020 11:16 pm

fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:38 pm
Constitution is for citizens I would imagine and not for non-citizens.
It's not. Chapter 2 makes the deliberate choice to usually use everyone — not just citizens.
fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:38 pm
In some EU countries, if the resident permit is refused, you have a right to appeal to a supervisor of immigration and that's your first appeal and that's it! If that appeal is refused you have to leave the country. For example, in Poland, the Border guard does not wait for your appeal to the court to come back with a decision. They move forward with the deportation and if the court decides in your favor, then you have to find your way from your own country back to Poland. You cannot physically attend court there with a refused decision.
I have no idea how all EU countries work. However, this has no relevance to Finland.

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mrjimsfc
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Re: Appealing a Negative RPin English possible?

Post by mrjimsfc » Tue May 12, 2020 1:24 am

fintel wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:46 pm

Who else finds FinlandGirl rude and arrogant?
I find that Finlandgirl has her act together and offers good information and better advice. In this particular case her advice to get a lawyer is wisdom incarnate.
Socialism has never managed to create anything beyond corpses, poverty and oppression.


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