district court judgements

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
krapulassa
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:23 pm

district court judgements

Post by krapulassa » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:58 pm

I stopped my gym membership last year for 6 months and they resumed it automatically when this time elapsed even during corona virus when they were closed etc. I sent them emails to cancel my membership but I got no reply.

Now they have hired a debt collector who has filed a case in district court claiming 600 EUR needs to be paid as soon as possible. They have also given me an option to pay in monthly installments but they are saying that with this option the district court will have to proceed and make a negative judgement on the case and this will stay on my credit file for three years.

Is this true that even with the monthly payment plan the court will make a negative judgement? Can I ask the court to give me more time to pay this or whether I can dispute the whole amount because they gym is now closed because of corona virus anyway and their claim is not that solid?

Can I get some sort of legal aid?



district court judgements

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

betelgeuse
Posts: 3728
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by betelgeuse » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:02 pm

krapulassa wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:58 pm
I stopped my gym membership last year for 6 months and they resumed it automatically when this time elapsed even during corona virus when they were closed etc. I sent them emails to cancel my membership but I got no reply.

Now they have hired a debt collector who has filed a case in district court claiming 600 EUR needs to be paid as soon as possible. They have also given me an option to pay in monthly installments but they are saying that with this option the district court will have to proceed and make a negative judgement on the case and this will stay on my credit file for three years.

Is this true that even with the monthly payment plan the court will make a negative judgement?
If you make a payment plan, you admit the debt is valid. If you dispute the payment, it will not result in a credit marking unless you lose and then don’t pay.
krapulassa wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:58 pm
Can I ask the court to give me more time to pay this or whether I can dispute the whole amount because they gym is now closed because of corona virus anyway and their claim is not that solid?
The court can’t force a payment plan.
krapulassa wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:58 pm
Can I get some sort of legal aid?
Yes, if you can’t otherwise afford it.

https://oikeus.fi/oikeusapu/en/index.html

User avatar
ajdias
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:01 pm
Contact:

Re: district court judgements

Post by ajdias » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:07 pm

krapulassa wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:58 pm
I stopped my gym membership last year for 6 months and they resumed it automatically when this time elapsed even during corona virus when they were closed etc.
Are you sure they were closed?
Some gyms remained opened, others offered substitute services(online classes instead of "regular" classes) while others may have required patrons to fill some form if they wanted to differ or cancel their membership.

krapulassa
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:23 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by krapulassa » Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:02 pm
If you make a payment plan, you admit the debt is valid. If you dispute the payment, it will not result in a credit marking unless you lose and then don’t pay.
I emailed the court admin if they will delay the judgement in this case and whether I can pay by march, 2021. Can I now go back and tell the court that I am going to dispute this debt because of an email I sent to the gym during the suspension of my membership and asked them to cancel my membership but they continued to charge me monthly? The gym is saying they never received such an email.

User avatar
rinso
Posts: 3919
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by rinso » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:48 am

because of an email I sent to the gym during the suspension of my membership and asked them to cancel my membership but they continued to charge me monthly? The gym is saying they never received such an email.
I think the continuation of the billing cycle was a good indication the cancellation didn't go through and more actions from your side were required.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:18 pm

krapulassa wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 8:34 pm
I emailed the court admin if they will delay the judgement in this case and whether I can pay by march, 2021. Can I now go back and tell the court that I am going to dispute this debt because of an email I sent to the gym during the suspension of my membership and asked them to cancel my membership but they continued to charge me monthly? The gym is saying they never received such an email.
If you can prove that you sent the email to the "right" address (server logs), than your cancellation should be valid, regardless of if they read it or not. This invoice you got, can be changed retrospectively after you have proven this. Then the claimant will (if he or she is smart) withdraw the case and be told to pay your legal costs (or those of the state in case of legal aid).

Of course this is only true if the GYM has an official way to cancel, a contract / subscription, by email (that is what I meant with "right" address).

Personally I always send email with all flags attached, in layman's terms: I switch on the tick box in the email, to ask for a read receipt, but I learned most people do not send those or even block those.
To counteract this problem, I also switch on in my email client, the flag to get a delivery confirmation. This also does not always result in a confirmation but.... if it does NOT arrive at the inbox of the recipient or the server it is hosted on, you WILL get a delivery failure notification.
This means if you do NOT get a delivery failure notification, it has been delivered, which is the proof you need.
This works best with a email client from for example Mozilla Thunderbird in combination of an email address from Google (gmail) set to POP3 or IMAP.
Google servers send you a delivery failure notification with the "conformation switch" on, if the server on the other end refuses the mail or if it does not exist.
I assume you did not receive such email message.. (if you did and you hide this "evidence" you are breaking the law / commit perjury) because if you did, you lose...you should have known your cancellation was not processed due to an error of yours (wrong email address, known spam IP address etc.) Also when a mail-server refuses an email, it will tell you in a message why it is refused by the server (invalid email address, unknown, full email inbox, your email is considered spam, Or it is just not deliverable without specification.

The beauty of email reception in a client over pop3 or IMAP is also that you will not receive google advertisements in your inbox either..like in the normal gmail app on your phone...

Back to your proof:
What might help you in this case, is if you sent the email with your phone, the by you sent email is probably still in the sent email folder, with the date. Double check the email address and date and if it is correct:
Make a screen shot of this and file it as evidence of your timely cancellation of your subscription to the court. Keep the phone with you in court to show the real deal if the claimant tries to say it is a fake made with photoshop or even MSpaint.. (been there done that... the showing the original, not the faking).

good luck...

FinlandGirl
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:41 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:18 pm
Back to your proof:
What might help you in this case, is if you sent the email with your phone, the by you sent email is probably still in the sent email folder, with the date. Double check the email address and date and if it is correct:
Make a screen shot of this and file it as evidence of your timely cancellation of your subscription to the court. Keep the phone with you in court to show the real deal if the claimant tries to say it is a fake made with photoshop or even MSpaint.. (been there done that... the showing the original, not the faking).
None of these actually proves anything.
Technically it is possible that due to accident or misclassification as spam any server between the sender and the receiver might silently drop the email.
Information in an email folder can be arbitrarily manipulated.

Showing these things might help convince a court that an email was sent as you claimed and was likely received, but this is not hard proof.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by NukkuMatti » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:17 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:41 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:18 pm
Back to your proof:
What might help you in this case, is if you sent the email with your phone, the by you sent email is probably still in the sent email folder, with the date. Double check the email address and date and if it is correct:
Make a screen shot of this and file it as evidence of your timely cancellation of your subscription to the court. Keep the phone with you in court to show the real deal if the claimant tries to say it is a fake made with photoshop or even MSpaint.. (been there done that... the showing the original, not the faking).
None of these actually proves anything.
Technically it is possible that due to accident or misclassification as spam any server between the sender and the receiver might silently drop the email.
Information in an email folder can be arbitrarily manipulated.

Showing these things might help convince a court that an email was sent as you claimed and was likely received, but this is not hard proof.
I agree, however I was told myself here in Finland Email can be treated as legal binding, therefore a send report / proof of sending is enough to show you fulfilled your duty, the same as using registered mail. It does not concern you anymore if the receiving end did not receive it. And it is my experience that in all cases I have dealt with (>10) it was accepted by the invoicing party as proof and the invoice was changed accordingly.
Of course this never came to court... so I have absolutely no idea how a judge would interpret "weak" proof as you might call it.
In this case "hard proof" as you call it, might not be required and handling in good faith and intent might suffice..
But again... I am no lawyer...nor a judge... therefore my remark
NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:18 pm
What MIGHT help you in this case
It is worth to try..

Although I agree that if this bill of 600€ is a accumulation of several bills invoiced regularly each month over a time of a year, than one could ask himself why no action by the defendant was taken to correct the obvious error by the claimant already after the first NEW invoice was received after this half year of pause..which will make the case for the defendant very weak / lost...(and then it is definitely not worth to try due to the need to pay for the claimants legal costs in case of a loss in court).

FinlandGirl
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:23 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:17 am
I was told myself here in Finland Email can be treated as legal binding,
A verbal agreement or statement is also legally binding.
Proving it is the problem.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:17 am
therefore a send report / proof of sending is enough to show you fulfilled your duty, the same as using registered mail.
A proof of sending an email is worth as much as a proof (e.g. witness) of sending an unregistered letter.
Both usually arrive, but may in rare cases get lost on the way.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by NukkuMatti » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:37 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:23 am
A proof of sending an email is worth as much as a proof (e.g. witness) of sending an unregistered letter.
Both usually arrive, but may in rare cases get lost on the way.
Hehe, semantics.. sending a registered letter will give you a piece of paper with a number that tells you sent a letter with a specific number. That is your proof.
The recipient needs to sign for it to get it. that is delivery confirmation.
Sending an email gives you an email identifier from the log and a send report with a time stamp, that is your proof, the receiving server will tell the sending server that the email is delivered, that is delivery confimation, (when configured correctly) hence sending an email is like sending a registered letter.

All will go well unless posti / the server admin f*cks up. :D

Please note, I am not stating any certainty here about the recipient actually reading the letter / email... a registered letter can still end up unopened in the trash, same as an email can still end up in the spam box.

Anyway it is clear that OP did not provide enough data to make a sensible conclusion / advice about what to do... lets see if this changes in the near future... ;P

FinlandGirl
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by FinlandGirl » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:18 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:37 am
Sending an email gives you an email identifier from the log and a send report with a time stamp, that is your proof, the receiving server will tell the sending server that the email is delivered, that is delivery confimation, (when configured correctly)
SMTP does not have delivery notification at the server level.
The sending server only knows that the next server has received it, whether this server then forwards/delivers/discards the email is not visible to the sending server.

There are delivery notification options for email clients that send a reply email when the email is opened, but these are completely optional.
NukkuMatti wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:37 am
Please note, I am not stating any certainty here about the recipient actually reading the letter / email... a registered letter can still end up unopened in the trash,
Throwing away a letter is the fault of the receiver.
Being able to prove that the letter was received is what matters for the sender.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3728
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:02 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:18 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:37 am
Please note, I am not stating any certainty here about the recipient actually reading the letter / email... a registered letter can still end up unopened in the trash,
Throwing away a letter is the fault of the receiver.
Being able to prove that the letter was received is what matters for the sender.
If it’s how you claim, why does saantitodistuskirje exist? Under your theory it wouldn’t seem to have any purpose.

suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm

I learnt this very fast, and learnt it very well. And nowadays, I encourage people in similar situations.

Don't trust.

Send emails with delivery and read receipt.

Follow it up with another email.

If neither these work, send an individual email to a named person within the organization.

If you call, make a note the time and the name of the person. Repeat the person's name a couple of times, psychologically, this ensures they will follow up since they know their name holds them accountable.

Either ways, I will keep track of every conversation and track it till the end.

The sooner you learn that a lot of countries depend on their advertised reputation of fairness, and reality is very far and different, the better.

Finally, I simply refuse to do business where a) I am not a 100% sure I need the service, and b) read through the fine print - very carefully.
SMTP does not have delivery notification at the server level.
The sending server only knows that the next server has received it, whether this server then forwards/delivers/discards the email is not visible to the sending server.
SMTP delivery reports tracks the tranfer to the MX exchange host, i.e. till the email server (host), that is proof that the email was delivered to the end email-inbox of the user. Email transfer lost during internal transfers (primary vs. secondary vs. country specific MX is not the responsibility of the sender). Which is exactly why if the email address is incorrect, it tells you that the address specified not found in the host/ domain. [sendmail administrator on HP-UX and Solaris from 1992-1997)

Finally, if you have proof of transmission, then it is up to the company to prove that they have not received it, not yours.
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: district court judgements

Post by FinlandGirl » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:54 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm
SMTP does not have delivery notification at the server level.
The sending server only knows that the next server has received it, whether this server then forwards/delivers/discards the email is not visible to the sending server.
SMTP delivery reports tracks the tranfer to the MX exchange host, i.e. till the email server (host), that is proof that the email was delivered to the end email-inbox of the user.
This is nonsense.

At the SMTP level you only know whether the next mail server has accepted the email.
You do not even necessarily know whether this was the final email server on the way.
You do not know at all whether this server has delivered the email to the end email-inbox of the user.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm
Email transfer lost during internal transfers (primary vs. secondary vs. country specific MX is not the responsibility of the sender
It is laughable when you claim every Gmail user would be responsible if somewhere inside Google the email you sent was not delivered.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm
Finally, if you have proof of transmission, then it is up to the company to prove that they have not received it, not yours.
Imagine your landlord has a friend as witness to prove that she terminated your rental contract 6 months ago by unregistered letter placed stamped into a postbox, and that you have to leave your apartment tomorrow. How do you prove that you did not receive the letter 6 months ago?

Unregistered letters and emails can get silently lost on the way, and the receiver cannot know or even prove that something never arrived.

suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: district court judgements

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:08 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:54 pm
This is nonsense.
As I said, and maybe I should have spelt out every alphabet: been a sendmail administrator on HP-UX and Solaris from 1992-1997 – likely before you were even born. Sure, the standards may have changed a bit, basic structure remains the same. In addition to sendmail, been a DNS admin till -2000. Not sure if you know what sendmail is!

FinlandGirl wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:54 pm
At the SMTP level you only know whether the next mail server has accepted the email.
You do not even necessarily know whether this was the final email server on the way.
You do not know at all whether this server has delivered the email to the end email-inbox of the user.
Here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MX_record
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_delivery_agent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_age ... structure)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_submission_agent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_transfer_agent

And FYI, I did some work with standards too, on some of the documents, my real name is visible.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:54 pm
It is laughable when you claim every Gmail user would be responsible if somewhere inside Google the email you sent was not delivered.
That is the complete opposite of what I said. Is it an English comprehension issue? Or a technical comprehension? End-user sender is not responsible to track the internal delivery. Nor is the SMTP sending server responsible the delivery to the end user mailbox.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm
Imagine your landlord has a friend as witness to prove that she terminated your rental contract 6 months ago by unregistered letter placed stamped into a postbox, and that you have to leave your apartment tomorrow. How do you prove that you did not receive the letter 6 months ago?
Unregistered letters and emails can get silently lost on the way, and the receiver cannot know or even prove that something never arrived.
Thankfully, emails and SMTP don't work on imagination. :twisted: And PS. Bad analogy. This would be applicable ONLY if the landlord also owned the full postal service. In this case, the landlord also depends on the mail provider (posti) that would need to goof up.

Email transmission and delivery report confirms that the delivery has been delivered to the final recipient.

The SMTP Server records the e-mail delivery information from your computer to the recipient's mail server. This information is stored in the log files or Mail Delivery Reports on the server. Mail Delivery Reports and mail delivery history are available. The detailed error report is also provided if a recipient's server goes offline, a server's heavy loads, an error in the email address and etc.

So, if you have the delivery report, that is enough evidence to prove transmission. In the receiver's email server, let's say a corporate email server fails, that is not the fault of the sender.

Case in point, send an email to the a Kirjaamo on Fri. If you get an acknowledgement and the whole email server crashes and emails since Friday are not recoverable, the sender is not responsible.

PS. And oh, most SMTP implementations use TCP, not UDP, so lost packets are also not an issue.
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?


Post Reply