Scam phone call from Microsoft?

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betelgeuse
Posts: 3875
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by betelgeuse » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:05 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:52 pm
So how does that work when you live in Finland? As long as the scammer is not pressing charges in Finland at the police, you walk free?
The criminal code defines per crime whether the victim needs to request or it can be prosecuted regardless.

https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokse ... 890039.pdf



Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:20 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:01 pm
Example: burglar comes in your home and you wake up, he threatens / tries to stab you (to death) and you hit him with the baseball bat from next to your bed, on the head and he dies! Are you a murderer or innocent victim. How does that work in Finland?
The legal system will decide, after a police investigation, a prosecutor whether to press charges and if so, the court will decide if guilty or not.

In such cases it is about the level of threat, proportional use of force, and when and how the force is used, as a self defense or somehow otherwise. For example, a small person (A) against a huge bodybuilder (B), one attacking the other bare-fisted with the intent to kill; if A is the attacker, anything beyond restraining the attacker may be deemed excessive, if B is the attacker, even the use of a firearm may be deemed justified. There are no stand your ground or castle doctrine laws in Finland, a target of an attack doesn't get a free pass by default.

Considering your example, a baseball bat is pretty much on par with a knife as such, but other circumstances may swing it (no pun) either way. If everything happens suddenly, probably the resident is not suspected of any wrong-doing. If the events unfold in another way, for example, after the burglar attacking the resident, and the resident having defended oneself, the burglar starts to back off and run away, trying to escape and at that time the resident catches up with the burglar, kills him/her by hitting with a baseball bat, the resident has committed a crime as the immediate threat no longer existed and therefore the use of force was no longer (legally) justifiable.

Try to make a distinction between what you feel is justified, and what is legal, those are two different things.

NukkuMatti
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Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:13 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:20 am
The legal system will decide, after a police investigation, a prosecutor whether to press charges and if so, the court will decide if guilty or not.

In such cases it is about the level of threat, proportional use of force, and when and how the force is used, as a self defense or somehow otherwise. For example, a small person (A) against a huge bodybuilder (B), one attacking the other bare-fisted with the intent to kill; if A is the attacker, anything beyond restraining the attacker may be deemed excessive, if B is the attacker, even the use of a firearm may be deemed justified. There are no stand your ground or castle doctrine laws in Finland, a target of an attack doesn't get a free pass by default.

Considering your example, a baseball bat is pretty much on par with a knife as such, but other circumstances may swing it (no pun) either way. If everything happens suddenly, probably the resident is not suspected of any wrong-doing. If the events unfold in another way, for example, after the burglar attacking the resident, and the resident having defended oneself, the burglar starts to back off and run away, trying to escape and at that time the resident catches up with the burglar, kills him/her by hitting with a baseball bat, the resident has committed a crime as the immediate threat no longer existed and therefore the use of force was no longer (legally) justifiable.

Try to make a distinction between what you feel is justified, and what is legal, those are two different things.
Agreed!

But, to get back to the original topic of these scammers, and the practices of Jim Browning and other scambaiters like Kitboga and scammersrevolt (perogi?):

It is my believe that in this case there is no crime committed by them, even if they would live in Finland, because they are granted access by the scammer: the scammer connects to the "victims" computer with a program (anydesk) that allows 2 way traffic, he does this out of free will therefore giving you access to his systems. This means there is no actual forced intrusion, access is given (knowing or unknowingly depending on the intelligence of the scammer) and therefore it is legal.
In the case the scammer use Teamviewer, they mostly even ask you to connect to their PC first, before they reverse the connection to prevent a warning pop up from Teamviewer regarding the use for scams
Even in the case of you setting up a "trap" by naming a RAT into a file with your banking details, it is the Scammer that chooses to use information from your computer which causes him to "invite" you to access his computer / network.
If it would not be legal, then Microsoft would not be allowed to sell their Windows10 because by using Microsoft, you give access to your network to Microsoft even if you do not want this (like me)... it takes a little bit of a windows guru to switch all this Microsoft telemetry off... (or you just download a tool for it).

So I do believe it is legal, even in Finland,....but if you have case law example of something similar that says otherwise, I would love to read up on it (even with google translate)...

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:13 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:13 am
But, to get back to the original topic of these scammers, and the practices of Jim Browning and other scambaiters like Kitboga and scammersrevolt (perogi?):
What you suggested was:
NukkuMatti wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:13 am
If you feel adventurous, try to get your hands on a good PC with multiple monitors, multiple Virtual machines on it configured, a good remote access trojan (RAT) virus on your VM desktop disguised as banking details file, a command and control server on another VM for controlling the RAT (on the same PC) and play along, let him connect to your computer VM and lure him to copy the trojan.... after that you can do anything on his PC or even complete network...
And it definitely is illegal to access to someone's computer and network without their consent. No matter how much someone is thinking of doing the community a service, it does not change that. Being a target of phishing, hacking,,.. attack does not grant you the right to do the same to them in return.

Furthermore, trying to get even with criminals on your own may easily get you in more trouble (with little to be gained); identity theft, continuing harrassment and whatever else, which may not have happened unless making a clear target of yourself. They are the criminals, and if you (hopefully) are not, you have much more to lose. Best to cut your losses, learn from the experience and let the police do their job.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by NukkuMatti » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:37 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:13 am

And it definitely is illegal to access to someone's computer and network without their consent. No matter how much someone is thinking of doing the community a service, it does not change that. Being a target of phishing, hacking,,.. attack does not grant you the right to do the same to them in return.

Furthermore, trying to get even with criminals on your own may easily get you in more trouble (with little to be gained); identity theft, continuing harrassment and whatever else, which may not have happened unless making a clear target of yourself. They are the criminals, and if you (hopefully) are not, you have much more to lose. Best to cut your losses, learn from the experience and let the police do their job.
Yeah that is the thing, the German / Finnish / Swedish / UK / USA police cannot do their job because they do not have jurisdiction. The Indian police don't care enough because there is the understanding / opinion there is no crime committed in India...(theft).

And you make the assumption that access is acquired without their consent, that is by definition wrong because with their actions, they give you consent, THEY connect to your computer, that means 2 way traffic, otherwise you cannot connect.

In my example I just made it clear that the trap is set fro anyone who wants to steal your bank credentials, and this is where lays the nuance, no innocent person will be falling for the trap, only thieves...

That said, even than, the act of actually deleting the scammers files, which is supposedly illegal from a Finnish law point of view, is very difficult to prove for law enforcement. There is no evidence, the youtube video you make can be a staged event like for example the bounty hunter video's (almost all are staged). Research on you VM will be virtually impossible because with every restart of the VM, the evidence is gone. So basically I do not see the problem.

Further more, you should of course take precautions regarding your digital safety, hence the VM. Better is even a stand alone PC using a VPN with a spare cloned Harddrive for rebuild purposes in case of a virus, from what you run your VM, like as AGroot said in the unfortunate event the one in a million scammers that are actually skilled, escapes the VM (which works as your sandbox).

Besides of course the use of a unregistered prepaid phone to make the calls (better to use the phone service providers as explained by Jim Browning and others.

But, I have better things to do so my actions stop with just donating / becoming member, to the patreon websites of Jim Browning / Perogi (scammersrevolt) / Kitboga etc.

So for all you interested people: check these out... :lol: :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/c/ScammerRevolts/videos
https://www.youtube.com/c/JimBrowning/videos
https://www.youtube.com/c/KitbogaShow/videos
https://www.youtube.com/c/ScammersGotDeleted/videos

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Scam phone call from Microsoft?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:52 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:37 am
That said, even than, the act of actually deleting the scammers files, which is supposedly illegal from a Finnish law point of view, is very difficult to prove for law enforcement. There is no evidence, the youtube video you make can be a staged event like for example the bounty hunter video's (almost all are staged). Research on you VM will be virtually impossible because with every restart of the VM, the evidence is gone. So basically I do not see the problem.
If you don't see a problem in breaking the law, I don't know what else to tell you.


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