Yleis avain

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
Post Reply
Y77
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:52 am

Yleis avain

Post by Y77 » Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm

Am I the only one that find the concept of the masterkey in residencial blocks of flats deeply disturbing?

I can understand in hotels is necessary in order to get your room clean, but in apartments? Knowing that someone can get in my flat anytime it is not nice at all. And how do I know who actually is holding them? How do I know that the guys that changed the air con filters last week actually returned it to whoever he was supposed to return it or that he hasn't made a copy of it in the meantime? Is Finland the only country in the world with this bonker system?



Yleis avain

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

betelgeuse
Posts: 3925
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Yleis avain

Post by betelgeuse » Sat May 01, 2021 4:33 pm

Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
Am I the only one that find the concept of the masterkey in residencial blocks of flats deeply disturbing?
It's possible to install a "turvalukko" without having it connected to the "yleisavain".
Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
I can understand in hotels is necessary in order to get your room clean, but in apartments? Knowing that someone can get in my flat anytime it is not nice at all.
Maintenance company being able to access the units in an emergency is useful. Even with "turvalukko" it's recommended to give a copy to the maintenance company.
Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
And how do I know who actually is holding them?
The housing company is required to keep logs on the whereabouts of keys.
Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
How do I know that the guys that changed the air con filters last week actually returned it to whoever he was supposed to return it or that he hasn't made a copy of it in the meantime?
Making copies is of varying levels of difficulty based on how old the key system in use is.

SecretCode
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Yleis avain

Post by SecretCode » Sat May 01, 2021 5:19 pm

When you know someone living in such a block whose daughter has a habit of losing keys, you know that getting copies cut can be towards the difficult end of the various levels of difficulty betelgeuse mentions.
Image

NukkuMatti
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Yleis avain

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 am

SecretCode wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 5:19 pm
When you know someone living in such a block whose daughter has a habit of losing keys, you know that getting copies cut can be towards the difficult end of the various levels of difficulty betelgeuse mentions.
Actually I know from Espoonassunot, that they will have your lock replaced when you lose a key (costs you 300+ euro)
Few years ago my youngest one dropped the spare key from the neighbor (he grabbed from the table), into the toilet and flushed it...
Your home insurance will not even pay for it.

Housing companies are required to use certificate keys that cannot (legally) be copied, you will need the certificate to copy them (or have your own key shop and illegal blank keys). These keys are not allowed to be copied due to patents, which expire after 10 years, so your locks will all be replaced every 10 years. (When you live in an official housing company apartment).

I have had a little project for proof of concept and managed to 3D scan a certificate key and print it with a 3D printer... which is, with a lot of trying and fine tuning, do-able.

So basically you will never be safe for malicious landlords / maintenance companies as long as you are living in a rental.

That said, I have had forgotten to close my front door several times already and it was open all night... nowadays when this happens, my neighbor of across the street will text me if I forget this again (or one of the kids)... but nothing happened.

I guess this is not Helsinki... I would definitely be more careful when living still in either Germany, Belgium, definitely Holland and foremost UK but here it is a bit the same as Canada... not so much of a problem with trust yet no problem with leaving the door open.... sadly this is slowly changing...

But on-topic again.. yes the housing company / landlord will always have a key to the apartment for management purposes, master key for multiple or just one for every single apartment. It is their property, even your key is their property. They do however, need to inform you at least 24 hours in advance (if this is possible, so exceptions do exist on that one too)..with disclosure of the reason, if they come by or send someone for repairs, it is considered polite (and custom) to keep a longer time of advanced notice of visit but...it does not always happen..

Basically it is also nothing you can prevent (and therefore should be worried about) either, you actually do not need a key to get inside...
One of my favorites beside scambaiters...: https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer/videos

So it is advisable to keep expensive equipment and or goods, out of sight when such persons are visiting.. not giving them a reason to come back..

betelgeuse
Posts: 3925
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Yleis avain

Post by betelgeuse » Thu May 06, 2021 1:15 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 am
But on-topic again.. yes the housing company / landlord will always have a key to the apartment for management purposes, master key for multiple or just one for every single apartment. It is their property, even your key is their property. They do however, need to inform you at least 24 hours in advance (if this is possible, so exceptions do exist on that one too)..with disclosure of the reason, if they come by or send someone for repairs, it is considered polite (and custom) to keep a longer time of advanced notice of visit but...it does not always happen..
24 hours is generally considered enough notice when it’s not urgent. The default rule is that the occupant gets to choose the time.

” Whenever necessary for supervision of the condition or upkeep of the apartment, the tenant shall immediately provide the lessor with access to the apartment at a suitable time.”

https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokse ... 950481.pdf


Visits to the owner apartment must be arranged at a time convenient to the shareholder and the party in possession of the owner apartment, unless otherwise required by the urgency or quality of the work in question.”

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokse ... 091599.pdf

Upphew
Posts: 10685
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Yleis avain

Post by Upphew » Thu May 06, 2021 10:14 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:33 pm
Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
Am I the only one that find the concept of the masterkey in residencial blocks of flats deeply disturbing?
It's possible to install a "turvalukko" without having it connected to the "yleisavain".
Iirc, and this might be old information, you can get discount on your home insurance when you have security lock installed. On the flip side you do get to pay for damages if someone needs to go through the door in case of water damage or some such emergency.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3925
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Yleis avain

Post by betelgeuse » Thu May 06, 2021 10:46 am

Upphew wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:14 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:33 pm
Y77 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 2:58 pm
Am I the only one that find the concept of the masterkey in residencial blocks of flats deeply disturbing?
It's possible to install a "turvalukko" without having it connected to the "yleisavain".
Iirc, and this might be old information, you can get discount on your home insurance when you have security lock installed. On the flip side you do get to pay for damages if someone needs to go through the door in case of water damage or some such emergency.
Often you would get the damages covered by insurance. No-one would cover the hassle of making claims etc. though.

Y77
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:52 am

Re: Yleis avain

Post by Y77 » Thu May 06, 2021 5:55 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 12:04 am
SecretCode wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 5:19 pm
When you know someone living in such a block whose daughter has a habit of losing keys, you know that getting copies cut can be towards the difficult end of the various levels of difficulty betelgeuse mentions.
Actually I know from Espoonassunot, that they will have your lock replaced when you lose a key (costs you 300+ euro)
Few years ago my youngest one dropped the spare key from the neighbor (he grabbed from the table), into the toilet and flushed it...
Your home insurance will not even pay for it.

Housing companies are required to use certificate keys that cannot (legally) be copied, you will need the certificate to copy them (or have your own key shop and illegal blank keys). These keys are not allowed to be copied due to patents, which expire after 10 years, so your locks will all be replaced every 10 years. (When you live in an official housing company apartment).

I have had a little project for proof of concept and managed to 3D scan a certificate key and print it with a 3D printer... which is, with a lot of trying and fine tuning, do-able.

So basically you will never be safe for malicious landlords / maintenance companies as long as you are living in a rental.

That said, I have had forgotten to close my front door several times already and it was open all night... nowadays when this happens, my neighbor of across the street will text me if I forget this again (or one of the kids)... but nothing happened.

I guess this is not Helsinki... I would definitely be more careful when living still in either Germany, Belgium, definitely Holland and foremost UK but here it is a bit the same as Canada... not so much of a problem with trust yet no problem with leaving the door open.... sadly this is slowly changing...

But on-topic again.. yes the housing company / landlord will always have a key to the apartment for management purposes, master key for multiple or just one for every single apartment. It is their property, even your key is their property. They do however, need to inform you at least 24 hours in advance (if this is possible, so exceptions do exist on that one too)..with disclosure of the reason, if they come by or send someone for repairs, it is considered polite (and custom) to keep a longer time of advanced notice of visit but...it does not always happen..

Basically it is also nothing you can prevent (and therefore should be worried about) either, you actually do not need a key to get inside...
One of my favorites beside scambaiters...: https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer/videos

So it is advisable to keep expensive equipment and or goods, out of sight when such persons are visiting.. not giving them a reason to come back..

i am not renting, I own the flat, that's what makes me the thing difficult to accept. A turvalukko is probably a good idea. By the way, if you lose your key and you need someone from the housing management to come and open the door for you, it costs you a wopping 80 euros, how is that for a bargain?

User avatar
rinso
Posts: 3928
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Re: Yleis avain

Post by rinso » Thu May 06, 2021 6:57 pm

i am not renting, I own the flat
Are you sure? It is more likely that you own a share in the housing company. (which dictate the rules)

NukkuMatti
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Yleis avain

Post by NukkuMatti » Mon May 10, 2021 8:47 pm

rinso wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 6:57 pm
i am not renting, I own the flat
Are you sure? It is more likely that you own a share in the housing company. (which dictate the rules)
Must be! Cannot imagine anyone that owns his own building, needing to make an appointment with a company he did not contract himself and provided access to his own building himself..without handing over his own key.

For that matter, if you own the building, what stops you from just changing the locking cylinder and get yourself an updated security lock. No need to drill holes and add extra locks either.. just change the current one... if you own the building...that is..

However if you own shares in a building / housing company that gives you the right to live in the apartment... as Rinso says.. you have to obey the rules set out in the rules of the building / housing company, which you agreed to when buying the apartment / housing company shares.

If this means that there is a master key for all locks and access must be granted at all times for maintenance... well there is your answer... should have read the small print before buying...

You can still try to change the rules during annual shareholders meetings, if enough other shareholders agree with you.
If it is a very urgent matter, you can call for a meeting and have the issue put on the agenda.. this also only happens if there is proven urgency for an unscheduled meeting and / or if enough others agree to a meeting. (the amount of required signatures from other shareholders to schedule an extra meeting, should be written down in the rules as well).

An extra security lock might be in breach with those rules too, or the rules could require you to provide the key to the building manager hence nullifying your reason to add it to your door.

So if I were you, I would check out the rules of the building / housing company first before you start drilling any holes and spending money for nothing.

Good luck.


Post Reply