Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

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KenKenKen
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Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:04 pm

Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by KenKenKen » Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:53 pm

As the topic mentioned, I am intended to install an electronic AI Security camera with a doorbell in the door eyelet.

I am living in an apartment, and my district may not have the best safe environment, so I hope to install one.

But I would like to learn more about if it might commit to any legal issue in Finland?

Basically, my Front door is facing my only neighbor on the same floor, and the left side is the staircase, so the camera might film these all as well.

I wonder if there is any legal base that they can ask you to remove?


Thank you.

Something like this
https://www.philips.com.my/c-p/DDA131FB ... oor-viewer



Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

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FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:04 am

KenKenKen wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:53 pm
As the topic mentioned, I am intended to install an electronic AI Security camera with a doorbell in the door eyelet.

I am living in an apartment, and my district may not have the best safe environment, so I hope to install one.

But I would like to learn more about if it might commit to any legal issue in Finland?

Basically, my Front door is facing my only neighbor on the same floor, and the left side is the staircase, so the camera might film these all as well.

I wonder if there is any legal base that they can ask you to remove?


Thank you.

Something like this
https://www.philips.com.my/c-p/DDA131FB ... oor-viewer
Illegal to use camera surveillance on your own, it requires an agreement from all the tenants, in practice a decision in a housing company meeting and notifications around the property of camera surveillance being in place.

FinlandGirl
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Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinlandGirl » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:27 am

KenKenKen wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:53 pm
As the topic mentioned, I am intended to install an electronic AI Security camera with a doorbell in the door eyelet.

I am living in an apartment, and my district may not have the best safe environment, so I hope to install one.
What do you hope to get from that?

In addition to the legal issues, the benefits of a camera are dubious in your case.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by NukkuMatti » Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:10 am

If it does not record, it should be allowed.

Prohibition is only handling recording devices, not real time viewers. (it is like a mirror on your balcony).

So check the manual and see if it is recording or only live streaming.

It cannot have a recording capability.

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:53 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:10 am
If it does not record, it should be allowed.

Prohibition is only handling recording devices, not real time viewers. (it is like a mirror on your balcony).

So check the manual and see if it is recording or only live streaming.

It cannot have a recording capability.
In the law there's no distinction made about recording.

From https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokse ... 150766.pdf :

The Criminal Code of Finland
Chapter 24 - Offences against privacy, public peace and personal reputation
Section 6 - Illicit observation (531/2000)
(1) A person who unlawfully watches or monitors with a technical device
(1) a person in domestic premises, a toilet, a dressing room or another
comparable place, or
(2) a person in a building, apartment or fenced yard that is closed to the
public, as referred to in section 3, where this violates the person’s privacy,
shall be sentenced for illicit observation to a fine or to imprisonment for at most
one year.
(2) An attempt is punishable.

riku2
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:13 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by riku2 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:30 am

Section 6 - Illicit observation (531/2000)
(1) A person who unlawfully watches or monitors with a technical device
(1) a person in domestic premises, a toilet, a dressing room or another
comparable place, or
(2) a person in a building, apartment or fenced yard that is closed to the
public, as referred to in section 3, where this violates the person’s privacy,
shall be sentenced for illicit observation to a fine or to imprisonment for at most
one year.
there has to be more explanation of the law than what you quoted, because just those words alone would mean that

a) a camera INSIDE your own home (which is a "domestic premise") would break the law
b) if you have a detached house and setup a camera pointing at your own back door would break the law ("fenced yard" section)

so is there another explanation of what lawful watching/monitoring is - because the whole section is qualified with "unlawfully watches ..." so what is "lawful" watching?

Some of the other parts of the pdf are interesting reading
Section 11 - Flight from the scene of a traffic accident (545/1999) If the driver of a motor-driven vehicle or tram is a party to a traffic accident and fails in his or her duty to stop at once and help the injured
So when out cycling and you cause an accident you can happily get back on your bike (if it's not broken) and cycle away. Tram drivers are not so lucky though (and are trams not "motor driven" ? those Flintstone style trams with no floor where you lift the body and run with your feet perhaps ?)

FinnGuyHelsinki
Posts: 1439
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:52 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:13 am

riku2 wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:30 am
Section 6 - Illicit observation (531/2000)
(1) A person who unlawfully watches or monitors with a technical device
(1) a person in domestic premises, a toilet, a dressing room or another
comparable place, or
(2) a person in a building, apartment or fenced yard that is closed to the
public, as referred to in section 3, where this violates the person’s privacy,
shall be sentenced for illicit observation to a fine or to imprisonment for at most
one year.
there has to be more explanation of the law than what you quoted, because just those words alone would mean that

a) a camera INSIDE your own home (which is a "domestic premise") would break the law
b) if you have a detached house and setup a camera pointing at your own back door would break the law ("fenced yard" section)

so is there another explanation of what lawful watching/monitoring is - because the whole section is qualified with "unlawfully watches ..." so what is "lawful" watching?

Some of the other parts of the pdf are interesting reading
Section 11 - Flight from the scene of a traffic accident (545/1999) If the driver of a motor-driven vehicle or tram is a party to a traffic accident and fails in his or her duty to stop at once and help the injured
So when out cycling and you cause an accident you can happily get back on your bike (if it's not broken) and cycle away. Tram drivers are not so lucky though (and are trams not "motor driven" ? those Flintstone style trams with no floor where you lift the body and run with your feet perhaps ?)
Having a camera showing the staircase of an apartment building is akin to having a camera showing the inside of a (someone else's) home (without their consent). Maybe not necessarily resulting in an equal sentence, if convicted of breaking the said law, but both places fall under the same definition ("kotirauha") under the law which may not be freely monitored. The law (and the translation of it) is there for everyone to read, no point of quoting it all here. The original question was about installing a camera monitoring a staircase of an apartment building. Can it be done? Yes, people can do whatever they want. Is it legal to do so (without the consent of other tenants)? No.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by NukkuMatti » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm

Basically EU law supersedes Finnish law and by EU law it is allowed to monitor with existing means, real time operated technical devices as in a movable mirror, camera without recording etc, if this would also be possible without the technical device.

This means you have a looking glass in your door to see through the door without others being able to see you, this means that you can lawfully observe the hallway by means of this looking glass (eyelet). Therefore the use of technical means is allowed hence it is lawful observing. NOT Recording.
You do not even need a warning sign: as in Finnish, it says "tallentava" which translates to RECORDING!

Of course the law text as quotes is intended for observing spaces by technological means that are not legally allowed to be observed, not with a mirror nor with an eyelet so also not with a camera.

A hole in the wall at a strategic located place is forbidden in toilets, it does not even need to be technical.

The explanation of the law is to be used in this context according to EU law.

Therefore making a camera in front of the eyelet, that is not recording but only capable of real time viewing of the same area as the eyelet is allowing, is therefore legal.
The law in the quoted law text is not violated, take notice in the word "unlawfully" specifying the broader context.

At least that is my reading of the text.

FinlandGirl
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Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:05 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Basically EU law supersedes Finnish law and by EU law it is allowed to monitor with existing means, real time operated technical devices as in a movable mirror, camera without recording etc, if this would also be possible without the technical device.
Please provide a link to whatever EU law you think would create a legal right for anyone to do this.

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Oombongo
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Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by Oombongo » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:29 am

enitan2002 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:10 am
I'd rather advise you install it right inside your apartment pointing it towards the door (so that anyone who opens the door is directly captured). Even with this setup, you need to put a notice right in front of your door (Aluella Tallentava kameravalvonta) to inform anyone firsthand before stepping into your apartment. That's the solution I can give because that's the additional setup i will add to my Google home network I currently have in place.
I find it funny that you have to go to great lengths to follow the law to the last alphabet and letter while the culprit would get a suspended sentence and a laughable fine at best. Then s/he is free to come after you, probably snuff you and nothing can do much about it.

A strange world we live in.
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Oombongo
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Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by Oombongo » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:16 pm

enitan2002 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:41 pm
Oombongo wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:29 am
enitan2002 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 10:10 am
I'd rather advise you install it right inside your apartment pointing it towards the door (so that anyone who opens the door is directly captured). Even with this setup, you need to put a notice right in front of your door (Aluella Tallentava kameravalvonta) to inform anyone firsthand before stepping into your apartment. That's the solution I can give because that's the additional setup i will add to my Google home network I currently have in place.
I find it funny that you have to go to great lengths to follow the law to the last alphabet and letter while the culprit would get a suspended sentence and a laughable fine at best. Then s/he is free to come after you, probably snuff you and nothing can do much about it.

A strange world we live in.


... in Finland if it's in the rulebook, it must & will be obeyed. It doesn'tmatter if it doesn't make sense or no-one understands why, it will be obeyed. That's life in Finland I'm afraid 🤷‍♀️
and if you are snuffed the taxman is coming after your grieving spouse for inheritance tax :lol:
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NukkuMatti
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Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by NukkuMatti » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:55 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:05 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Basically EU law supersedes Finnish law and by EU law it is allowed to monitor with existing means, real time operated technical devices as in a movable mirror, camera without recording etc, if this would also be possible without the technical device.
Please provide a link to whatever EU law you think would create a legal right for anyone to do this.
EU-GDPR and all related case law.. use google yourself, got better things to do like writing this :lol: 8).

I know "common sense" and "logic" are words that do not exist in the vocabulary of a lot of people (in my experience a lot of Finnish) but, basically if it would not be allowed, as an example: "Pokemon Go" would be forbidden in Finland including most other Niantic AR games. Hey all AR would be forbidden. Dashcams would be forbidden (although they might technically be because they record without permission other people). Google glass would be forbidden Microsoft lens etc.. Your Iphone use outside etc, etc,

Just search for security camera related cases, there are several.. it is a long read and search, but you will find it...Had to do it myself too hence I had a local Finnish law problem with my housing company about (almost) the same, I was actually recording my belongings from behind the window, I notified all residents and informed them according to GDPR requirements includig how all was stored an for how long and who to contact etc... and took technical measures not recording private public space (= shared space with other residents like the housing company street / path in front of the house. So I was only recording my own yard.

The whole reason Kojamo Oy / VVO / Lumo, has incorporated in their housing company rules that you are not allowed to record or use any camera on private company property outside your apartment is because of me :lol: (what basically means you cannot even make a skype call outside because you have to prove the other one talking does not record the conversation, which is impossible..) They even forbid this in one's own (back and front) yard. (at least they did this at the complex where I used to live, don't know if they updated this to all their property, have
never rented from them since.

This almost went to court... but the fact that I let them know I was willing to go bankrupt on it and continue to EU court made them back off I think.. they just changed the housing company rules so that it was explicitly forbidden to use any camera outside the apartment or have one facing outside. (no pictures could be made inside with the outside visible through the window).

This caused the table to turn, now I needed to go to court to sue them for making these rules that were in my opinion violating several EU laws including human rights. (but that is even normal for the Finnish state so...). I decided to move out............after this line I will get an internal server error when posting so wait for part 2

NukkuMatti
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by NukkuMatti » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:57 pm

Part 2
I live in my own house now so I do not need the permission from a housing company to do anything and have myself now a night-vision recording PTZ WIFI cloud camera watching down from the top of the door, not recording the public space / city street, signs are mounted at all entry points of the premises to comply with GDPR. It has 2 way audio as well, very easy if someone is at the door at night...you can curse at them for waking you when they ring the doorbell at 3AM without leaving your bed, or choose to ignore it, it is nice to have the option. Of course if it is the neighbor telling you the house is on fire... well you know the drill.

So if you want to know more, search it yourself... but I have learned from this that if the housing company does not explicitly forbid it, you can do it as long as you obey GDPR, which means that if you do not record or even temporary store the images somewhere (= recording) than it is allowed and you don't even need to mention it if it is a place that is normally visible to every one all the time, without technical equipment. To be clear we are not talking about a toilet, shower or dressing room here, where one can expect to be invisible for the outside world, duh-hu.

Most simple thing to prevent problems for OP here is: Don't tell anyone! Hide the camera by hanging something over it, just mount it behind the glass lens of the eyelet on the inside of the door where you would put your eye, so the camera peeps through that eyelet..don't use screws but mounting tape (the strong one that holds 30Kg /m) Then it is removable / temporary and the housing company cannot complain you damaged the door by making holes in it.. Problem solved.

... in Finland if it's in the rulebook, it must & will be obeyed. It doesn'tmatter if it doesn't make sense or no-one understands why, it will be obeyed. That's life in Finland I'm afraid
Yeah see how that works with zebra crossings, fraud, corruption. DISCRIMINATION of foreigners.. the biggest fairy-tales / lies that Finns like to recite, that they are so law abiding citizens... hypocrites is what they are. They smile in your face and the moment you turn around they stab you in the back. Especially when you catch them in the act and confront them with it, they will go to great lengths trying to ruin your life regardless of the collateral for innocent bystanders. You should talk to Piet (this forum) he got some nice stories about that too.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 1329
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by FinlandGirl » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:37 am

NukkuMatti wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:55 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:05 pm
NukkuMatti wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:44 pm
Basically EU law supersedes Finnish law and by EU law it is allowed to monitor with existing means, real time operated technical devices as in a movable mirror, camera without recording etc, if this would also be possible without the technical device.
Please provide a link to whatever EU law you think would create a legal right for anyone to do this.
EU-GDPR and all related case law..
GDPR sets limits and rules for processing of personal data, it does not create any right for processing of personal data.

To make a simple example:

It would be compliant with the GDPR if a random stranger beats you up so that you are 3 months in hospital.
Contrary to your claim, this does not imply that Finnish laws outlawing beating up other people would be void.

NukkuMatti
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Can we actually install an AI Security Camera Eyelet on the front door?

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:28 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:37 am
NukkuMatti wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:55 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:05 pm


Please provide a link to whatever EU law you think would create a legal right for anyone to do this.
EU-GDPR and all related case law..
GDPR sets limits and rules for processing of personal data, it does not create any right for processing of personal data.

To make a simple example:

It would be compliant with the GDPR if a random stranger beats you up so that you are 3 months in hospital.
Contrary to your claim, this does not imply that Finnish laws outlawing beating up other people would be void.
I know that like earlier, comprehensive reading is not your strongest point, we have clashed about this earlier and now also in another thread, seems again you really like me, are you sure you are not trying to get me to date you??

Please read the post again and do not take one term out of the context but take it as a whole.... please... it will make things much clearer.


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