Living in Finland as a foreigner

[Upphew]

That's all folks... have fun twisting my words over and over again... as said before: I guess it has proven useless to discuss this here at all due to the lack of positive input and overall denial by the ones defending the Finnish status quo (without their spell checking on...hint... ).

Exactly what positive input have you brought into this 'discussion'? Hell it seems the only positive thing you want say about a Finn is he is HIV positive.

He seemed to like the scenery, granted you don't need Finns for that.

[Oho]

He seemed to like the scenery, granted you don't need Finns for that.

Actually the odds are good you do, the legislation which has preserved lake shores and for the most part kept them clean, is well Finnish

[Piet]

You're right that in order for something to be a "lot" needs a reference, i.e. a lot compared to something. Compared to which countries does Finnish women have "a lot" of non-Finnish boyfriends/spouses? Has there been a notable increase in Finnish women having non-Finnish boyfriends/spouses? So no, you still make wild generalizations, something you seem to be oblivious to.

Actually both Finnish male and Female find their partner increasingly abroad the borders of Finland. The amount of mixed marriages in Finland quadrupled from 1990 to 2009. It is very funny to see is that the difference is clearly between the origin of these foreign spouses, Male tend to find them more in countries with natively more docile Female like Philippines and Thailand (they are clearly fed up with the emancipated Finnish women), and Female find them more from countries with natively more passionate and emotional Males like Britain and Italy (because they are clearly fed up with the closed and stubborn behaviour of Finnish men).

I will give you a Source: http://www.familiaclub.fi/duo_themes_re ... hip_3.html for other sources ...Duckduckgo is your friend

So before you call anything oblivious about me, you might consider looking at yourself first...

Actually the odds are good you do, the legislation which has preserved lake shores and for the most part kept them clean, is well Finnish

And that helps? Yeah right...
http://www.nuclear-heritage.net/index.p ... in_Finland
http://yourearthsafe.com/deforestation- ... ten-issue/
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... den-norway

That's all folks... have fun twisting my words over and over again... as said before: I guess it has proven useless to discuss this here at all due to the lack of positive input and overall denial by the ones defending the Finnish status quo (without their spell checking on...hint... ).

Exactly what positive input have you brought into this 'discussion'? Hell it seems the only positive thing you want say about a Finn is that he is HIV positive.

For your HIV story: http://www.ndphs.org///documents/3747/H ... itsola.pdf you can make some nice conclusions about that..

And you obviously did not read the positive, so for your benefit here again (read the Great points):
Living in Finland as a Foreigner is:

• Great when you have money enough and are independent of the system, you just buy the service you need.
• Great when you are an uneducated immigrant, you can study here for (almost) free and enough jobs Finns do not want to do (cleaning and healthcare f.e.)
• Great when you are a refugee, you will be taken care of and Finland is safe compared to you home country, after that see uneducated immigrant.
• Great when you have a big young family, child care and education are great and when both parents are jobless, see next.
• Great when you are not smoking and don't drink and have no need for luxury, welfare is enough to keep you in rather good condition, all medical needs are paid for and child support is including their social development and sports, this stops when they get 18.
• Great when you are a high educated immigrant that got (invited for) a job here at a big international company (like Kone or Marioff) and you found a Finnish women here in the process.
• Great when you are a(n) (exchange) student, see all previous, until you graduate, see next
• Sucks when you finished your (higher) education and you have a foreign last name or colour. You will probably be stuck on a job like cleaning Vantaa airport or be a bus driver.
• Sucks when you are a high educated immigrant that just happened to fall in love with a Finnish women on a holiday and decide to join her in Finland, you will most probably be jobless the rest of your life (not even a bus company or Lassila & Tikanoja will want you)
• Sucks when you are an immigrant that used to work for a big Finnish company (f.e.Nokia) and now being sacked, your luck ran out and you should have saved your money, see first point (you might want to try Jolla if coding is your thing).
• Sucks when you are an immigrant women (regardless of your education) that came to Finland because you fell in love with a Finnish man, life here turns out to be soo much different than he told you and so does he! But you still can become a waitress if you look reasonably good!!

Anything else to complain and twist my words about?

Personally I do not see any positives in discrimination, so I cannot help you making the Finnish society (or you guys for that matter) look less appalling. Looks to me you're the only ones that can do that by for starters: ceasing to deny everything all the time and finding it normal.

For me...I am very positive... I will get on a plane soon and return later with some nice bottles of certain special "alcohol" containing beverages that cost in Finland together so much that I fly for free and could buy an extra ticket for that same price...

[FinnGuyHelsinki]

Actually both Finnish male and Female find their partner increasingly abroad the borders of Finland. The amount of mixed marriages in Finland quadrupled from 1990 to 2009.

So before you call anything oblivious about me, you might consider looking at yourself first...

Increasingly? Now that's a real shocker, if you take the timeline back or project forward a few more decades you will have more validation to your point. Which is still missing, it's not exactly "a lot" of Finnish women (or men) that have non-Finnish partners. Have you ever lived in Finland without your inner circle having consisted mostly of foreigners or people the spouse of whom is a foreigner? Have you ever worked for an employer in Finland the working language of which is Finnish? Do you personally know (more than a few) Finnish people that have a different socioeconomic standing than your own? If answer to any of the questions is "no", your view is skewed from the start, you wouldn't know what "normal" in Finland is.

[rayoflight]

To stay close to the topic of this thread. Having lived in this country for three years before moving here from England, the experience has been pretty positive. People are generally quite nice and friendly. There is no "in your face" racism that you may find in other countries. It is also quite safe in the street as long as you avoid drunks, who may be amusing but dangerous at the same time.

Your neighbours keep to themselves but do help if you're in trouble. Also, they seem to warm up once they get to know you. In the workplace the experience has been pretty positive too. There are some really nice, warm colleagues who made me feel welcome and not just on the surface. I have been to meetings in northern and mid of Finland where there have been fantastic experiences. People welcoming you without any grudge or discrimination.

You can walk in this country at 1 in the morning and don't feel threatened in most places. I have seen young people 11-12 year olds going to the beach at midnight on their own in the summer. This is just wonderful.

As a family our first experience of teenagers was that they let us use the lift (even though they were waiting before us) and in a much polite way that not even grown-ups do. After being in the UK for 11 years (where there are plenty of good examples too), we were quite afraid of even approaching teenagers in the first place. There are may other examples of young people behaving quite well (even when drunk) compared to many other places that I've been to (the only continent I haven't visited is Antarctica).

But there are of course two sides of each coin, and no place is perfect to live. There is a raging debate going on in this (and many other) thread, if there are problems related to xenophobia, etc. And through observations one can say that points raised by Piet and others do hold true upto and extent. Even if one takes this forum as an example, in many threads I have read blanket statements such as "foreigners don't follow rules" and "foreigners this or that". It just goes on to show the deep distrust that the Finns have, and possibly as they are some of the least exposed of people to multi-culture than the others. Some things that may even be illegal in any other country are quite widespread here. I read one TE office guide to immigrant which proudly presented something of the effect "majority of jobs may not be advertised as Finns will hire others they know".

A trade journal for one of the biggest engineering fields recently started running highly negative articles after foreigners were hired as tenure track faculties with the title "now foreigners will teach our students X, Y or Z". They even ran an article during recruitment process once a foreign national was shortlisted for a job, criticising the selection process. I was told by my colleagues that this candidate was dropped once the committee read this article. This was quite shocking given that academic world should be free of such discrimination and the country should recognise the need for internationally leading teaching and research. This kind of articles would lead to legal trouble for these journals in many other countries.

The points raised about the integration programme are not completely out of the place either. The country is spending millions on these integration programmes, but it is really quite hard for highly skilled migrants to find jobs as the language barrier - real or artificial does exist.

But these are generalised points, and there is no single reality. It just depends on how you view the world, how you adjust to challenges and what your outlook is on a given day/month/year.

[justaguy]

I've lived here permanently close to 6 years. Before that I was here for a total of 12 months for a holiday. I've worked 5 jobs in that time with the longest job going over 2 years now.

Your average Finns are a fine bunch so long as you treat them with respect.

First you have the little kids, who don't understand your terrible Finnish, and equally bad English. This is because there's a 99.9% chance that they're going to a better school than you ever did.
Then you've got your teenagers. They're off limits and none of them are interested in talking to you. They have the crushing pressure of high school to worry about, and whether or not their favourite guy/girl likes them back. Also they think that you dress like sh!t.
Then you have your 'amis' teenage/early 20s types that could do with learning a little 'respect' but it's nothing really even worth mentioning.
Then you have the Uni students. Again, too busy getting a degree that is far better than the one from your home country, so they can out earn you in their first year. None of them are paying you any attention. It's not like you could understand any of the awesome stuff they are studying anyway.
You also have your drunks/juopot/spurgu/jne who are 99.9% of the time far too concentrated on their own issues, that they won't bother you (or even notice you).
Lastly you have the adults, those people that you see walking around in fine, unbranded clothes or suits with their nice clean cars. Despite what you think, and your paranoia, they're actually too busy with their jobs and families to give you any attention.

So, to put it all bluntly. If there are any feelings of racism, or a lack of respect from Finns, then it comes from your own personal (and typical) western upbringing of feeling like you're bloody royalty or that your sh!t doesn't stink. Such a mentality does not exist here and no, people are not obligated to answer all of your stupid @#$% questions, and they do not have to placate you when you butcher their mother tongue. Finland is a well oiled machine that doesn't need your help. There is nothing wrong with the 'class' system here in Finland, the only thing that is wrong is that you don't fit in anywhere.

In point. Learn some effing humility, accept that you are surrounded by people who look out for themselves and their own, and don't give a !"#¤% about you (unless you give them a reason to) - and get used to it.
Sure there are plenty of exceptions to the rules but the point is, if you just got off the boat and still have that 'new maahanmuuttaja smell' then sure you're going to have to earn your respect. The same goes for any country, anywhere, on earth. For example, Americans hate foreigners, and growing up, it's more important that you're actually FROM the US than you are from somewhere cool like Iceland (no pun intended). In Australia, we hate immigrants more than even Finland does, I guess the only difference is that we don't have a forum or Facebook groups where westerners regularly bitch about it because there's no language barrier.

Oh whoops! Actually we have @#$% HUNDREDS, and we're far fúcking worse than the Finns!

As for foreigners.

Well we're the bloody plague. We come here and take jobs, we bring this retarded mentality that we're all 'hot shít' when in reality we're just people who all came from somewhere, same as anyone else. We judge everyone more than the Finns could ever judge us. Worst of all, unlike the Finns we bitch about it. At least they have the decency to keep it to themselves. But noooo, as a westerner, when someone doesn't smile at you whilst they serve you coffee, our first priority is to use their free Wi-Fi to connect to Facebook/Twitter/etc. and bitch about it!

Selfish, self-serving, narcissistic, uncultured foreigners are what makes this country a pain in the ass, the only times that it actually even is - a pain in the ass. Not Finnish people, not that xenophobia that doesn't remotely exist, that you just cooked up in your head you crazy fool. It's foreigners and their unrealistic expectations that this country has to conform and work like either where they are from, or like everywhere else they have been to. People hate what they don't understand, and very few people come here understanding anything.

Lastly, it's no wonder that westerners are always so pissed off. I mean you get PAID to sit on your ass all day in front of the computer so you can get fat and talk sh!t with other westerners about how much everyone hates you and how unfair it all is. Honestly, foreigners are their own worst enemies here. But hey, they'll never understand this because they're trapped forever in their own ignorance of spending 50% of their time bitching about how everyone hates them and that the language is impossible to learn, and the other 50% of the time buying clothes from H&M off my tax money. Meanwhile their Finnish spouse is probably being driven mad by them.

Anyway to someone on the inside it's all quite amusing.

[Piet]

Hi everyone, being abroad was refreshing again, made me see Finns in a broader perspective again

Have you ever lived in Finland without your inner circle having consisted mostly of foreigners or people the spouse of whom is a foreigner? Have you ever worked for an employer in Finland the working language of which is Finnish? Do you personally know (more than a few) Finnish people that have a different socioeconomic standing than your own? If answer to any of the questions is "no", your view is skewed from the start, you wouldn't know what "normal" in Finland is.

To answer your questions, all of them I would have to admit that I did so yes on all accounts, so what does that tell you now? Ah that I indeed know what normal in Finland is. Thank you for agreeing with me (finally). I would have had a poor life (mentally) in the past 25 years in Finland if I wouldn't.

So again and I do not say it lightly and it hurts me to see, the Finnish are still in denial...but this will change soon in a faster pace than the past 25 years.. there is still hope

PS reading the aussie post (justaguy) makes me wonder if he is talking to a mirror, has been on some bad mushrooms lately, or did never get any history lessons about where his own ancestors come from....(or is just faking all and he is a Russian Troll), but being an aussie I guess I wouldn't want to know either

Nice to know that you can't remotely have a debate without resorting to fallacious retorts

Says who?

But seriously, ah forget it.. not gonna analyse his posts.. I found out (especially after having been away for a long weekend) that the level of debate is pretty low here anyway so..for the people that really want to know something...well read the whole thread and if you are a tiny bit smart, you will pick out the good post with useful information by yourself and ignore the racist ones like:

Me not being pleased with the filthy and unhygienic behaviour of one cultural group

If you read his other threads it will be obvious that he has psychological and personality issues so better just ignore him at least in this argargument.

Yes let's just ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence and personal experience on the matter and resort to ad hominem attacks because you're out of valid replies.

And naming any pointing out facts, "ad hominem", is mistaking the true meaning of Ad Hominem.

One thing I want to point out:

xenophobia that doesn't remotely exist

is of course a lie because in that case, this would not be happening: http://yle.fi/uutiset/diversity_rally_g ... ki/8188896

And then a little heads up for all that say the Finnish language requirement for work is logical...apparently me calling it illogical is not so weird as you critics might advocate here:
http://yle.fi/uutiset/entrepreneur_call ... ts/8294174


So I just thought I share these thoughts with you all

[newborn]

I think, racism in Finland is much more than it is claimed in the following link which says that "14% admitted to being racists themselves"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Finland

The possible reason that there is more racism than what is mentioned in the link is that many Finns do not know (or do not care) the difference between racism and discrimination. Why I am telling so? Well:

When I have confronted some Finns with such situations or talked about it with other Finns after the incidents most of them try to justify it by telling " WE DO THE SAME TO FINNS AS WELL". Some of my friends and some other foreign people (Non-EU), with whom I talked about racism in Finland, have experienced similar kinds of situations.

What I mean is: So, I think, these kinds of Finns do not know that when they behave differently (or make a difference) with a Finn, it is discrimination and when they do same thing [behave differently (or make a difference)] with someone of different skin colour/religion/country of origin, sexual orientation, race etc, that can be considered racism. Therefore, when these Finns are/will be asked by surveyors whether they are racists, they will surely claim that they are not racist.

[Zwagger]

After ripping through all the pages on this thread I would have to agree with Piet on job chances.

In Finland, most recruitment officers or HR personnel are mostly Finnish. In a country where a lot of companies are state-owned it is only normal to see that those Finnish HR people are likely to employ people with Finnish looking names. Not much to argue here. Of course there are the usual exemptions like working in IT, doctors, few Engineering jobs. That is basically it.

There are other habits people do not acknowledge. When I first came to Finland, I was an enthusiastic young boy who just wanted to study work hard and get a job. I started learning Finnish both at school and outside of it. I tried really hard to get a part-time job in fact just any job to do when I am not busy with school stuff. It was so difficult that I gave up on Finland. But what was this habit? That you should have someone refer you to an employer before they can give you a job. I do not know if people discuss this but at the time we learnt in school that in Finland it is easier to get jobs through referrals. At that time, I noticed other acquaintances(who spoke no Finnish) got jobs in offices where I was told they had no vacancies. Why? Their country men who already worked in the company helped them in. Then I wonder where is the merit? This is quite subjective but I leave it here.

I know so many people who came here same time as me. Of over 100 people I know, 80% i.e. 80 (Masters level educate) of them have left Finland and I am quite happy they all went ahead to do great stuff. 15% of the remaining 20% are the very lowly educated (no bachelors degree) who are quite content with blue collar jobs (not like it is a bad thing). The remaining 5% (highly educated) would leave if they had a magic wand.

Having studied for outside of Finland, I can tell you English language is enough to get a job in Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria etc. Only in Finland do all job requirements come with Excellent Finnish skills.

My point is, Finland is a great country for anyone to live and work in. Pretty safe, clean and easy to mind your business. I am not discussing racism, xenophobia and what not. This is purely about the job situation for immigrants.

When you do not specialize in those fields I have listed in the second paragraph your chances of being happy doing dead-end jobs is zero. The good news is things are slowly changing compared to 80's, 90's and early 2000's. Yet, coming here as an highly educated immigrant can be a very very challenging step.

[Peach]

@Nimi; sorry but you're wrong, and you're missing the point, i don't think is about somalians or not, in this particular case, muslims (which for what i have read previously, many muslims are from Somalia) behave like that, which person would be ok with that??, seriously!!.

In general if any foreigner, that have that kind of behavior, that person would be rejected instantly, that's not racism, that's just common sense and just ask basic respect for other humans beings. Acting completely rude, inconsiderate and especially ungrateful with the country that has open it arms to those people in need and that's the way they're being thankful to Finland? sorry but as a foreigner myself, i did not behaved like that at all! when i was there, i was very respectful, i followed the rules, i even tried to learn some words, and i was there only as tourist, now i ask you: How it should behave a person that has asked asylum in FInland, or in any other country?. Certainly, not like those guys in the schools and trains.

I don't understand either, is a lack of good manners, and respect for the culture that is helping you. If you go to visit someone at his or her house, without be unannounced and unvited, and however you are being welcome to stay there by the host, wouldn't you be polite and respectful AT LEAST?

For example here in México, we HATE gringos that come to spring break in Cancún, and leave our beaches completely dirty, full of trash without respecting our costumes, they behave like they are the owners, just because they bring money, which as mexicans we're indeed grateful to have tourism that increase our economy but we don't like rude behavior, when they come to vomit, create scandal and leave garbage everywhere and sometimes they don't respect either the pyramids and some protected natural areas, after this example, therefore; i do understand why some finns don't like that some foreignars, mainly inmigrants and muslims behave so disrespectfully.

[Peach]

That piet guy is a pain in the ass, isn't? idk what he's doing in Finland, if he complains about everybody and everything, just because his personal experience wasn't good, it doesn't means Finland is racist and a bad place to live and bla bla, he is the problem, not Finland, otherwise why to stay in a country that is so bad?
Why he lives there if he complains about how hard is to get a job (without knowing finnish!), well, of course is gonna hard to get one, but not only in Finland, in all the countries it is hard, all over the world. One of the rules finns have is, to learn finnish!, he doesn't like the rule? then go somewhere else to live!.
He's so annoying, he talks bad about everybody; men, healtcare, architecture, costumes, history, prices, and language, oy my god!, seriously!!!, why he came to live in Finland then? because or he needed or he doesn't has other option, then stop complaining! because that's his problem, not finns.
About how "hard" the language is? is like duh! it is, didn't he researched before go there? then get over and stop bitching. I'm learning finnish too so i know is really hard but i don't complain. I mean he disagrees in basically everything! he should come back to his own country then. I think finnish people are not racist, they are very polite and friendly (in their own shy way). We as foreigners, are the ones, WE must adapt to Finland, not the way around.

[Peach]

I will tell you that it does not matter what colour you are, discrimination because you are not Finnish is always there... even for me... and then to know that Finns are actually most related (genetic wise) to the people from my country.
[start rant]
This o so beautiful country has one big downside, it is filled with a lot (read carefully...) of xenophobic humans that smile and laugh to you very friendly but behind your back will turn devious, jealous, arrogant and treacherous.

Hidden discrimination is everywhere and with the wrong last name it will be virtual impossible to get a well paid job, even when you have the papers for it. In some cases it is so bad that a person with skills no one else has in Finland, will just because of that, not get the job: he is a threat to the one that hires him...

Most employers do not want to hire people when they are not fluently Finnish speakers (see the job adds) ... the only fluent Finnish speaker is someone who was born here or is so good with languages that he will leave this country for a far better paid job elsewhere. The language requirement in job adds is just to make sure that a Finnish one is hired and they will have a valid reason for not hiring you.

But for studying, this country is great, it is (still) free, but as said: don't expect as a foreigner to get a job afterwards unless it is in the supermarket, as a bus driver or in healthcare when properly educated. Finland has 10% jobless and another 10% is working for free with unemployment benefits, another 3% is working as part of their education (that means 23% is not having a normal salary and is on or below poverty-line). Just imagine how these figures are for youngsters...[end rant]

So my advise: get your study finished here and move to Germany, Holland or Canada, so very much more tolerant there.. and sooo much better job opportunities there too.
If I could, I would do the same..

I have to laugh, in Germany and France, their people are very racist however the government in 2015 have received a looooot of inmigrants and then the attacks in Paris and assaults and rapes in Germany happened. In another countries in EU happened as well in New Year's Eve

[NukkuMatti]

@Nimi; sorry but you're wrong, and you're missing the point,

I guess someone else is missing the point too

It really seems you do not get the point Piet was making regarding the discrimination and the obvious problems it generates towards work life in Finland.

When I read your reply on his post, it feels like you want to say:
"of course you are discriminated and of course you will never get a job here, that is normal, own people first even if they are not as good as the immigrant," of course we want native speakers, even when the language we speak is not native at all, but English.
What are you thinking, discrimination is normal practice and if you do not want to be discriminated, then leave."

Your post for sure makes very clear how YOU think about Gringo's coming to "Megico"

I have to laugh, in Germany and France, their people are very racist

I am shocked by your urge to laugh about racism:

That piet guy is a pain in the ass, isn't?

So because Piet holds a mirror in front of YOU too, he is a pain in the ass? That sounds a little bit like ad-hominem don't you think? To return the favor, why would I take some who's English is that bad as yours, serious (you see, that is ad-hominem, makes no sense).

To conclude, why bother reacting like that when you live in Mexico anyway, you are for sure, no expert on Finnish labour market mechanisms. Seems to me you are no more than the average internet troll, but please correct me if I am wrong

[Peach]

I didn't laugh about racism, i laugh due to some people thinking, that there is not racism in germany and in other places in europe Yep, i'm not in FInland, but this forum is open to people from over the wolrd, are you implying i shouldn't write my opinion only because i'm not in Finland?.

I don't understand why a person like Piet, complains about a foreign country, about their people, laws, culture, etc, and basically everything, if is so bad, why don't come back to his home country?, especially been living for several years, he must be a masowuist to still there, lol.

[Beep_Boop]

I don't understand why a person like Piet, who lives in a foreign country but complains about their people, laws, culture, etc, and basically everything, if is so bad, why don't come back to his home country?.

This is absolutely the most idiotic answer one can have to criticism. It's so idiotic It's so stupid that there's a dedicated logical fallacy term for it Ergo Decedo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
Please don't think you're smart for bringing up such a unique and nuanced argument. I highly recommend not using it if you want to be taken seriously in life.

One can live in a country and still criticize how certain things are done. Here's an example: Spitting in the street in front of other people is culturally acceptable in Finland, but I personally dislike it and I don't do it; I can criticize it and express my disagreement however I feel like it. Just like a Finn living and working in Saudi Arabia can say "I don't like how some people here eat with their hands without any cutlery".

Believe it or not, Finland isn't a Middle Eastern or South American country where you're not allowed to freely express your opinions and thoughts.