Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
Upphew
Posts: 10560
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:36 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:58 pm
Even for public transport, who will pay for the roads and maintenance? If the roads are bad, how do you expect the emergency services to get to you?
I think car tax, fuel tax... basically all taxes that deal with cars end up in the coffers of state. Towns don't get any money from state afaik. Private roads can get money from state. Under 10M this year ( https://www.ely-keskus.fi/web/ely/tehdy ... kuksittain ).
80k km, 26k km and 350k km. The first one are the state funded big roads and highways. Middle one is the roads town's deal with. Last one is private roads. Taxation of cars don't pay the roads. It pays a lot of other stuff.


http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

User avatar
Piet
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Piet » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:58 pm

......(please insert previous posts here).....
Besides the fact that I actually agree with you on several points, I get the feeling you purposely misinterpret several of my statements and use an adhominem style of discussing this issue here with other posters here too.

As for comprehensible reading other ones posts before attacking them: you mention the 2 points I wanted to address but you did not find them, well they were clearly marked as "First" and "Second" so without wanting to resort to your style of adhominem replying to me, I do feel the need to point out here that you do not master this trade yet.

To to prevent ending up in mindless struggles over semantics and continuous exchange of adhominem replies, let me at least make one issue more clear, the plastic one, where you conveniently ignored several of the remarks I made:

An easy 1st search result on google for your benefit:
https://plastics.americanchemistry.com/ ... -recovery/


So to come back at your statement that plastics can not all be recycled, the solution is simple, stop making / using those and replace them with plastics that can. A child could have thought of that.

When you follow the link you will get an idea of the mechanism we have to move to, a circular economy (and not only for plastics btw.).


To come back to the topic of Fly tax instead of the sideline about plastic: yes I agree it is brainfart of some politician that sees easy money, but then again, money is needed by the state to pay for the current system, no matter how rotten it might be at the moment, the money needs to come from somewhere. One could also raise the gasoline tax (again) or the income tax, does not matter, we will eventually pay for it anyway. the benefit of calling it a fly tax and linking it to environmental problems only benefits the awareness of the problems our children are going to face if we do not substantially change our behaviour. So I would say "kill two flies with one stone." (actually spending the money on the repair of the environment would be 3 flies with one stone).

That said, you complain a lot in your posts about the powers that be and their greed, I would suggest:
If you want to do something about it, please go and vote, or even better, become an active member of the system and try to change it from within.

I would like to leave the Nuclear issues for another time, this thread is already polluted as we write... :wink: talking about pollution and doing something about it. :lol:
If god would give us the source code, we could change the world
Image

User avatar
Piet
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:45 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Piet » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:30 am

Talking about fly tax is one thing to get yourself annoyed about for all the wrong reasons (and some right ones too) but if one is really honest, it does not go far enough.

One person in particular getting that point, I read about today, is the boss of the Dutch Amsterdam Airport Schiphol (AMS) that states that the air travel should be CO2 neutral in 2050 too.
While it is currently exempted from the Paris Climate Agreement, it should be included.

So I guess everyone can expect his Ticket to become even more expensive in the near future, the money for reaching this goal has to come from somewhere.

So instead of bitching about a few euro's more for the ticket now, one should prepare for a real hike in ticket prices in the foreseeable future,
To prevent too steep rises in these fares, one can only join the discussion and find ways to accomplish this 2050 goal of carbon neutral flight in ways that do not need to get the ticket price raised. Good luck with that one.

Reactions by people on these issues (also here on the forum) are like a love affair being ended, first there is denial, then there is anger, then comes the sadness and finally acceptance. I guess most here are still hanging in phase 1 or 2 :lol:
If god would give us the source code, we could change the world
Image

suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:28 pm

Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
I get the feeling you purposely misinterpret several of my statements and use an adhominem style of discussing this issue here with other posters here too.
Nope! Not my style. However, if the argument and the point is not cohesive, then yes.

ad hominem

Let's take this first, since this seems to be a misunderstood concept. ad hominem is about attacking the individual's character or motivations rather than a argument made - ONLY when the argument, position or assertion made is *worthy, sane position and cohesive* - not otherwise.

In other words, IF your argument is correct and there is nothing else left for for the defender then attacking the debater is wrong. In the above cases, your argument was not even tangent to the point being made.

You want an example? On a discussion of a circle, circular and round:

Debater 1: Like a lot of objects such as a pizza, the circumference of the earth is circular and round.
Debater 2: Yes/ no, but the pizza has also lots of toppings and spices, and which may include both vegetables and meat!


So, in these cases, there is no sane or logical argument that is worth positioning. In this case, ad hominem is a kind and gentle move - to put it subtly. Take this as feedback: Stay on the point. You can drift towards an analogy that supports the point, but stay on point or have a route back to the core and scoring point.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
they were clearly marked as "First" and "Second"
Merely marking a point as first, 1st, or 1) OR second, 2nd, or 2) does NOT make the point, argument or assertion cohesive.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
need to point out here that you do not master this trade yet.
Been a master debater, adjudicator for years. Doubt if your feedback is enough!

Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
So to come back at your statement that plastics can not all be recycled,
Dude, again, that was not the core nor scoring point.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
a circular economy (and not only for plastics btw.).
The idea is that there is greed that destroys the planet for personal gain. And taxing me extra is NOT going to solve the problem, the only thing it does it take money from me.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
To come back to the topic of Fly tax instead of the sideline about plastic: yes I agree it is brainfart of some politician that sees easy money
The problem goes far deeper than that.

If a human is born free, i.e. NOT a slave, then his hands, his legs, his brains, and any revenue or income made by the use of those is the person own personal property. Just like muscle, you work out, you gain the muscle and that belongs to you. Nobody can take your muscle from you, nor force you to use them for their benefit. In other words, let's assume you go to the gym for 5 years, build muscles, and then the government comes and tells you to use your muscles and bricks without your will, that is slavery.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
money is needed by the state to pay for the current system, no matter how rotten it might be at the moment, the money needs to come from somewhere.
Not my problem, nor my solution. I am done paying these bâ5turds that take the product of my labour as their personal fund.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
One could also raise the gasoline tax (again) or the income tax, does not matter, we will eventually pay for it anyway.
Ever heard of taxing people to death? This seems to be it. All they want is a personal cause that they can showcase in the media to put their hands in others pockets.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
the benefit of calling it a fly tax and linking it to environmental problems only benefits the awareness of the problems our children are going to face if we do not substantially change our behaviour. So I would say "kill two flies with one stone." (actually spending the money on the repair of the environment would be 3 flies with one stone).
And that is precisely what will not happen. They'll take the money and use it, and there is an endless pit. I am not sure if you read the news in Finnish, it paints a very different picture.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
That said, you complain a lot in your posts about the powers that be and their greed, I would suggest:
If you want to do something about it, please go and vote, or even better, become an active member of the system and try to change it from within.
1. For me to join them would mean I need to lower my moral standards and accept that I have a right to the earnings of others for free.

2. There is no way reasoning and logic can stand in the court of the loud media and hysteria.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
So I guess everyone can expect his Ticket to become even more expensive in the near future, the money for reaching this goal has to come from somewhere.
And what is the goal? Money? Or environment? Again, you seem to be losing track (intentionally?) towards raking money as well! Many simpler actions can be taken. Legislate and stop producing products that are damaging the earth. Legislate and stop rewarding business ideas that do so. Go back a bit to products or solutions that are really sustainable and not just belching the "sustainable" word

Merely taking money under hysteria and pretext that is the core of the problem.
Piet wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:09 am
Reactions by people on these issues (also here on the forum) are like a love affair being ended, first there is denial, then there is anger, then comes the sadness and finally acceptance. I guess most here are still hanging in phase 1 or 2 :lol:
If it only were a love affair being ended; sadly not so! I suggest you actually follow the world news and events. In reality, these kinds of idiotic taxes and initiatives drive people away. And that is bad. Europe is in decline. Finland is in decline. You see cultures don't have a birth day or an expiry date, but they do decline. If you read the Finnish news, 1-person households is on the rise, childlessness is on the rise. Taxes, costs, and expenses of living don't have a role? At all? This also reflects a change in culture. Children are expensive in Finland. And eventually the population declines into a deep spiral that it will not recover from.

So, it is not a love-affair that ended, but a lover being jilted after he/she started to be a gold-digger. In other words, it is driving the lover straight into the arms of a waiting man/ woman that is better.

My then-wife had been trying to hire people (developers) from other countries - even with a work permit sponsorship, only 1-in-10 wanted to come. You see countries like India, China etc. are going up in terms of economy and personal wealth. Laws are becoming simpler. Personal assets and freedom growing.

In Europe it is declining. I left too because of the tax and the culture (well, yeah the weather and darkness played a role too). So, why does it bother me? Because some times, I need to pay for the kids and missus to visit.

If the f-ing-Id!ots making decisions in Finland do not recognize these issues, then I am sorry to say, your joy is short-lived.

This was previously stated and I am just referring the intent here: Why would a well-educated professional that Finland has NOT paid for, want to come to Finland, and then pay ridiculous levels of taxes and needs to pay even more to be able to visit his family?

How will they impose the tax on tickets not purchased in Finland?

Or is it only Finnish residents that need to pay their tax?

etc.

These were the points made... see the 5th post in the chain


PS. I know more than 1, roughly about 12 families that have moved away from Finland due to the high taxes and the long term feasibility of paying their hard earned money for nonsense.
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

Upphew
Posts: 10560
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:53 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:28 pm
Why would a well-educated professional that Finland has NOT paid for, want to come to Finland, and then pay ridiculous levels of taxes and needs to pay even more to be able to visit his family?
Because of... Freedom and capitalism?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/opin ... alism.html
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.

suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:42 pm

Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:53 pm
Because of... Freedom and capitalism?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/opin ... alism.html
Upphew, come on! Well, this topic has digressed quite a bit, so I'll come along with you just to answer the post :D

I don't disagree with you in principle, I think there are good aspects here as well. And I am not denying that. But these "features" seem to be common in Canada and the rest of Europe (well, mostly).
  • Largely peaceful. Except when it comes to rights of others (see below on Freedom)
  • Most common services (KELA, the County/ Municipality office, Registry services, Police services and licensing) are good - even compared to the USA.
  • Houses are better insulated, water and air is clean. Roads are somewhat maintained (South Africa has better roads)
  • Tertiary/ specialized care services are at par. I have sometimes felt that the first line (basic health care) is very weak compared to e.g. Singapore.
  • Schooling facilities are excellent, education is just okay. By that I mean that employers are not actively seeking out western employees rather India and China engineering and medical graduates and no, it is not just the salaries.
  • Banking services, consumer protection etc. are just ok! IF you know the language and the applicable laws (don't know how many times I've had to refer to the law to get their attention.
  • Etc.

So, these are ok. I am not saying perfect. But OK.

When it comes to Freedom, I am not really sure. You see I don't see any of the common freedoms (which I am assuming that you speak of) being less relevant, including in the South East Asia or Asia in general (including Singapore, India etc).

The reality of "freedom" in my opinion is worse that it is perceived. And for those that believe in this crap, they often find out the hard way.

One of my lady friends told me "come on now, Finland is so safe, it is the one of the safest in the world". And despite the intimate moments we just had, my question was simple: "Who is it safe for? For a dark skinned boy/ guy walking downtown Helsinki in the middle of the night? For a passerby? "

I have a friend, she is from Kenya, and worked in a bakery, which meant sometimes early mornings and late nights. She told me of two instances, once on the metro when a guy late night just slapped her and walked away, and on the tram when the guy just spit on her. And it seems quite often from what I hear. Who is treated fairly?

Again, really? Some of these cases come to light, most of them are hidden under the privacy umbrella. But yes, it is socialist-capitalism. In other words, put your hands and draw out the money, and then use that money to make more money. And somebody's making a profit.

Best country in the world! *Best* education system (despite the OECD ranking)! I am sure everybody's heard of the elephant in Europe joke? Yep? 'I wonder what does the elephant think of me', is an accurate way to sum up all these paranoia!

BTW, on the same note: Sure, Finland has good things, BUT I don't see endless lines of educated people making a beeline for the Finnish borders, they are still heading to the US.

PS. @Upphew, you might want to catch up on PragerU (sure, I don't buy everything they say), but they do have some interesting views on socialism, climate change etc. But they are then the other extreme!
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?


Post Reply