URGENT HELP - NEGATIVE DECISION

[inkku]

... - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

What is the wording in Finnish?

[Mitch19]

... - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

What is the wording in Finnish?

Below is the sentence :-

Maahanmuuttovirasto ei ole myöntänyt hakijalle oleskelulupaa opiskelun perusteella, koska hakija on esittänyt väärennetyksi epäillyn asiakirjan selvityksenä toimeentulostaan.

[Mitch19]

Here's my take.

I actually tried calling them yesterday and they refused to completely explain the details- considering the decision is in Finish!They just told me to look at the blanket decision which is - Fake documents!Quite unfortunate!

How do I corner them to clarify how they arrived at that decision?

That's the key thing, you don't ask them to validate their views to you. Rather you ask the court to examine their reasoning. Let them try using that reasoning with the court. Migri is forced to respond to the court. Short sentences. Concrete challenges. Make sure you mention that you tried to get additional details. Get proof!

I love the ombundsma n idea.Maybe I need to look into it.

https://www.oikeusasiamies.fi/fi

https://www.okv.fi/en/chancellor/chancellor-justice/

There is a difference between incomplete information and complete but suspicious information.

They cannot *treat* incomplete information and fraudulent information the same way. If I remember correctly, that is covered in the Administrative Act (Hallintolaki)

The authorities are there primarily to serve the interest of Finland, not of a foreign student.

What's your source of this information? For this very reason, I dislike the use of the word "authority", it is more accurate to say "officials", i.e. viranomainen. The law-makers represent the interest of a nation, the officials are bound by the mandate and responsibilities given. "Interest" that conflicts with their mandate and responsibilities, hmmm, give me a heads-up and I'd be happy to send off some complaints.

And fraud with financial information for study permits has been common, so no incentive to be extra lenient.
... That the attitude within Migri is less than optimal is understandable with the budget cuts and upcoming redundancy.

Some people break the speed limit, so fine everybody? Flash the camera at everybody driving the speed limit or even 10 kms lower? Or what's the point being made?

The ombudsman will not reverse the decision. He might give them a slap on the wrist.

It is the same Migri that sent a person to his death. How light is their performance to be taken?

They don't have to prove it is a fraud.

The burden of proof is not upon Migri, but on you.

Heh! So, they can make allegations that they don't have to prove? That's quite an assumption. What if their claim is that the OP/ applicant is an extra-terrestrial that has come over the earth? Or that the OP is a criminal having done heinous crimes? What's the limit? That assumption is simply wrong because if that was case, and their stands/statements/ viewpoints cannot be challenged, then what's the point of laws, courts, etc.?

I admit it is easy to call it fraud and reject the application. ... But they are already understaffed and there are more reductions coming. I understand they will not spend time on investigations into foreign banks. (which might refuse to give those pieces of information over the phone)

The applicant has an application is line with a due process. Their mandate is to evaluate each application on its entirety, easy or not is the applicant's prerogative. Their being understaffed, suffering with diarrhea, whatever is not the concern of the applicant.

Better go for a more successful option (new, well-documented application).

I think filing a new application and an appeal may be done in parallel. A well-formed complaint should keep them on their toes. On the other hand, a new application will cost the same, and if their skills are what I imagine to be, they are looking for a windfall. But if you do file an appeal, make sure you use an separate paper why you are filing this, and justify the circumstances clearly. Unless the process has changed and everything is electronic, whenever I deal with authorities, not only do I staple the corners of the documents, I add page numbering and stick the corners with glue, so papers and justifications don't go missing!


Addendum: A recent article states that Migri did not know what would happen in the future even if the exact same circumstance was described to them. And that they are not at fault for the event of the person's death. And yet they paid, IIRC, 20.000 EUR as compensation! If they are not at fault - why?. Good heartedness? It is good that sentences here are lenient! And they paid it with the tax-payers money! What about the responsible officials? Not even a slap on the wrist? If they had any sense of morals, after Finland was found in breach of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the Ombudsman and the courts must take the officials into account.

But here's the thing: If you've grown up here, you are accustomed to a level of thinking that Finland's government and the officials are unassailable. Indoctrinated that everything is correct. The level of faith is at a level of superstition. And as far as I know, keeping the questions short and objective forcing them into a corner renders them unable to defend their position, but admittance to guilt... sadly, at one sisu stood for grit, today it stands for arrogance.

Thank you for this rather elaborate response.Quite revealing I must say.But the question still remains,If sayi go the appeal way and also put in a new application chances are the application will not be processed until the appeal is over right?

If I go the reapplication way - I will still provide the Same same documents as support documents which Migri 'Assumed' very disheartening,that are false!

Is there a way an appeal can be fast tracked?

[betelgeuse]

We just got a decision yesterday and the decion is negative - the reason they are giving is they think the bank statement is forged ,WHICH IS NOT TRUE!

The documents are legit to the dot,nothing was forged AT ALL.

Which is the best approach to this?Should we appeal or make a new application?

Residents of most countries can open a Transferwise borderless accounts. Making the funds available in Euros and in hands of a European entity makes it harder for Migri to dispute them.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... ss-account

Am sorry but this might not really help anyone.Then need a transactional account for the bank statement.Not just a one time account,transferwise is only a means of money transfer but not really a bank account per see, so this isnt really feasibly

You should look at what borderless is. It does come with payment cards and account statements. It’s true that it’s not a bank account but electronic money accounts suffice for immigration purposes.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... nk-account

[Mitch19]

Residents of most countries can open a Transferwise borderless accounts. Making the funds available in Euros and in hands of a European entity makes it harder for Migri to dispute them.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... ss-account

Am sorry but this might not really help anyone.Then need a transactional account for the bank statement.Not just a one time account,transferwise is only a means of money transfer but not really a bank account per see, so this isnt really feasibly

You should look at what borderless is. It does come with payment cards and account statements. It’s true that it’s not a bank account but electronic money accounts suffice for immigration purposes.

https://transferwise.com/help/17/border ... nk-account

No thanks,I doubt this is what I need right now.

[betelgeuse]

No thanks,I doubt this is what I need right now.

Why would you not want to move the money to Europe, if you are not looking to defraud officials?

[Mitch19]

No thanks,I doubt this is what I need right now.

Why would you not want to move the money to Europe, if you are not looking to defraud officials?

I choose not to engage with you further as you are not objective in your advice.Maybe you need to read what the others have adviced me then you will understand the course of this thread.

[inkku]

Have you guys read his first messages on this board? Is he now asking advice for somebebody else, he studied in finland 2016-2018.

[Mitch19]

Have you guys read his first messages on this board? Is he now asking advice for somebebody else, he studied in finland 2016-2018.

Yes,I am asking on behalf of someone else.

[suomynona.yllatot]

No thanks,I doubt this is what I need right now.

Why would you not want to move the money to Europe, if you are not looking to defraud officials?

Can you please elaborate on the rationale of the question?

There are *many* reasons why one wouldn't want to move money. A friend of mine, having worked for 12 years in one of the GCC at a senior level moved about 20K - of his own money - for his own use - and then decided not to stay/ use the money. At least at that time, he had to provide multiple clarification why he was transferring the money out.

I don't want to say "we", but to maintain coherence of the sentence, I need to use "we".

We've created a system that mandates us to store *our* hard earned money (money being the product of one's own labour) and then subject to the whims and fancies of the #€%&/() !"#¤% fürhers! Really?

Ever made a trip to the museum of history in Helsinki? You can see 500 markka notes there, torn in half. go study the history, and not too long ago.

To answer the original question: I still wonder: Why insist on moving the money here? So the money is parked here? The liquid capital available for interest bearing loans? Is there an insinuation in there?

[suomynona.yllatot]

... go the appeal way and also put in a new application chances are the application will not be processed until the appeal is over right?

There is a chance that Migri will choose not to process the application - even though, as far as I remember, each application must be assessed own its own merits.

There are enough points in the thread that could help you make this application, get a good Finnish lawyer, I recommend Daryl, he is sometimes on this board as well. Use the points, include a clear cover letter for the application, why this application is different and mention the incorrect approach to the earlier application assessment.

They certainly won't like it... "how dare a foreigner challenge their process"!

If I go the reapplication way - I will still provide the Same same documents as support documents which Migri 'Assumed' very disheartening,that are false!

You can try and explain why the document is NOT fraudulent with evidence. Ask them to contact you if something is unclear. But hearing the recent explanations made in the case of the deportee to Iraq, there are some very unused useless brains out there.

Is there a way an appeal can be fast tracked?

Finland does not work with fast tracking. If you have to die, wait in line.

At least, there isn't a process that I know. You could try requesting the school to call Migri, but that might be hard. Which is why doing both might be a good idea, send a complaint (wakes them up), and the submit the second application (hopefully, this leads to better handling), and file an appeal.

[betelgeuse]

No thanks,I doubt this is what I need right now.

Why would you not want to move the money to Europe, if you are not looking to defraud officials?

Can you please elaborate on the rationale of the question?

You can see from Migri's website that they give different weight to different banks: "When applying for an extended permit, a deposit in a Finnish bank account is the easiest and most reliable way to show that you have secure means of support."

https://migri.fi/en/means-of-support

[suomynona.yllatot]

You can see from Migri's website that they give different weight to different banks: "When applying for an extended permit, a deposit in a Finnish bank account is the easiest and most reliable way to show that you have secure means of support."

https://migri.fi/en/means-of-support

That's where I have a problem. Migri can say that completing an application in pink lacy underwear is the easiest way for them to process the application, give me the statement/ clause in law that mandates it. Migri, i.e. the former Aliens Unit (Ulkomaalaisyksikkö) has long had [bad] habits of demanding statements outside the law, which has principally not held up in a court of review.

If there is a legal definite demand, please point me to the Chapter and section in the Aliens Act! If there isn't one, is there a link between Migri and the banks to pull money in?

[betelgeuse]

Can you please elaborate on the rationale of the question?

You can see from Migri's website that they give different weight to different banks: "When applying for an extended permit, a deposit in a Finnish bank account is the easiest and most reliable way to show that you have secure means of support."

https://migri.fi/en/means-of-support

Moving the money to Europe also removes the currency risks. The applicant needs to show sufficient evidence that there are enough euros available for the duration of the residence permit. Due to the single market, Migri is not allowed to give preferential treatment to a Finnish licensed operator over European ones.

[betelgeuse]

You can see from Migri's website that they give different weight to different banks: "When applying for an extended permit, a deposit in a Finnish bank account is the easiest and most reliable way to show that you have secure means of support."

https://migri.fi/en/means-of-support

That's where I have a problem. Migri can say that completing an application in pink lacy underwear is the easiest way for them to process the application, give me the statement/ clause in law that mandates it. Migri, i.e. the former Aliens Unit (Ulkomaalaisyksikkö) has long had [bad] habits of demanding statements outside the law, which has principally not held up in a court of review.

They ask it because of section 39 of the Aliens Act.

"An alien’s means of support are considered secure at the time when the alien’s first residence permit is issued if the alien’s residence is financed through gainful employment, pursuit of a trade, pensions, property or income from other sources considered normal so that the alien cannot be expected to become dependent on social assistance referred to in the Act on Social Assistance (1412/1997) or on other similar benefit to secure his or her means of support. Social security benefits compensating for expenses are not regarded as such a benefit."

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokse ... 040301.pdf