May I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pmNo. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
It's not part of social assistance, if that's what you are asking.Maaria wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 4:05 pmMay I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pmNo. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:betelgeuse wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 9:58 pmIt's not part of social assistance, if that's what you are asking.Maaria wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 4:05 pmMay I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pm
No. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
So as for the 158a(1)(1), one year rule from 160(2) applies?FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm
The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).Maaria wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 10:50 pmSo as for the 158a(1)(1), one year rule from 160(2) applies?FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm
The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Thanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)? Also, if this unemployment is due to this extraordinary Covid-19 situation. Otherwise it was going well. Does that make any difference?FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm
Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
The reason for these rules is that you should not be able to move to the EU country with the highest benefits without first contributing in this country. 1 year is very short for getting this indefinitely.Maaria wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pmThanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)?FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm
Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
If COVID-19 or sanctions with Russia or the collapse of the Soviet Union or Nokia throwing away their market-leading smartphone business in 2011 or any other extraordinary situation with enormous impact on Finland affects you, this does not automatically give you any extra rights.
Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
But doesn't the contribution in previous EU country carry over? They do ask for previous years income even if that includes income in other EU country. Also I was given option to keep paying into the social security of the previous EU country or here.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:57 pmThe reason for these rules is that you should not be able to move to the EU country with the highest benefits without first contributing in this country. 1 year is very short for getting this indefinitely.Maaria wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pmThanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)?FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm
Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
If COVID-19 or sanctions with Russia or the collapse of the Soviet Union or Nokia throwing away their market-leading smartphone business in 2011 or any other extraordinary situation with enormous impact on Finland affects you, this does not automatically give you any extra rights.
Also, they are not offering ongoing unemployment benefit. It will only be paid from March 16 to June 30. But you think it's better to stay away from it despite how difficult it is?
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Ongoing unemployment benefits continue to exist as they did before.
Why would you not take it?
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
It depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection. It could indirectly help, if they prevent the need for social assistance.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Deportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 amIt depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Not true. See section 168 of the Aliens Act.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 amDeportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 amIt depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
This is only applicable as far as permitted by EU legislation and court rulings.betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 10:36 amNot true. See section 168 of the Aliens Act.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 amDeportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 amIt depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
The British High Court ruled deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets are a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how courts interpret the legislations.
There is also the practical issue that deportation alone would not remove the right that the deported EU citizen can take the next plane back and stay for 3 months in Finland.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Yes with the note that the Aliens Act is regularly updated to keep up with EU acquis.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 amThis is only applicable as far as permitted by EU legislation and court rulings.
Makes sense if they weren't applying for benefits. Especially as UK has never required registration of right of residence.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 amThe most common case is whether deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets is permitted. The British High Court ruled this is a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how impossible this can be.
Yes and that's why entry bans can be issued. They can't be issued for deportations due to burden on the social services though.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 amThere is also the practical issue that deportation alone would not remove the right that the deported EU citizen can take the next plane back and stay for 3 months in Finland.
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Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence
Whether or which benefits have to be granted is often a disputed question.betelgeuse wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:21 amMakes sense if they weren't applying for benefits.FinlandGirl wrote: ↑Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 amThe most common case is whether deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets is permitted. The British High Court ruled this is a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how impossible this can be.
Denied benefits do not imply deportation.
Finnish law is also fun when there is an income requirement for residence permits on family ties for spouses of non-EU citizens, but a few years ago the law was changed to make the spouse eligible for unemployment benefits.
Migri requires to have sufficient means of support, but it is not a problem for Migri when Kela anyhow pays benefits.