Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

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Maaria
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by Maaria » Mon May 11, 2020 4:05 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pm
Maaria wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:00 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:44 pm

In Finnish it's toimeentulotuki.
I see. So only the income support paid by Kela comes under social assistance and nothing else?
No. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
May I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?



Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

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betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by betelgeuse » Mon May 11, 2020 9:58 pm

Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:05 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pm
Maaria wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:00 pm
I see. So only the income support paid by Kela comes under social assistance and nothing else?
No. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
May I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?
It's not part of social assistance, if that's what you are asking.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:58 pm
Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 4:05 pm
betelgeuse wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:49 pm


No. Supplementary income support (täydentävä toimeentulotuki), for example, is handled fully by municipalities.
May I also ask what does General housing allowance paid by Kela come under?
It's not part of social assistance, if that's what you are asking.
The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:
Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.

Maaria
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by Maaria » Mon May 11, 2020 10:50 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm

The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:
Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.
So as for the 158a(1)(1), one year rule from 160(2) applies?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm

Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:50 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:25 pm

The answer to the main question might be in the following in the Aliens Act:
Aliens Act wrote: Section 158a
(1) EU citizens may reside in Finland for more than three months if they:
1) are engaged in economic activity as paid employees or self-employed persons;
2) have for themselves and their family members sufficient funds and, if necessary, health insurance so that, during their time of residence, they do not become a burden on Finland’s social security system by resorting repeatedly to social assistance provided in the Act on Social Assistance or other comparable benefits or in some other similar manner;
...
Section 160
In cases referred to in section 158a(1)(1) above, EU citizens who are no longer employed or self-employed persons, will retain their status as employed or self-employed persons even if:
1) they are temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
2) after having been employed for more than one year they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office,
3) after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or during the first twelve months of employment they become unemployed involuntarily and are registered as jobseekers with the relevant employment office; in this case they retain their status as employees for six months; or
4) they embark on vocational training that is related to their previous employment or, if they are involuntarily unemployed, on other vocational training.
I am not sure whether cancellations actually happen in practice in the 158a(1)(2) case (or relevant EU case law), but when retaining 158a(1)(1) status what is written in 158a(1)(2) is not even applicable.
So as for the 158a(1)(1), one year rule from 160(2) applies?
Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.

Maaria
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by Maaria » Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pm

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm

Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
Thanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)? Also, if this unemployment is due to this extraordinary Covid-19 situation. Otherwise it was going well. Does that make any difference?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Mon May 11, 2020 11:57 pm

Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm

Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
Thanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)?
The reason for these rules is that you should not be able to move to the EU country with the highest benefits without first contributing in this country. 1 year is very short for getting this indefinitely.
Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pm
Also, if this unemployment is due to this extraordinary Covid-19 situation. Otherwise it was going well. Does that make any difference?
If COVID-19 or sanctions with Russia or the collapse of the Soviet Union or Nokia throwing away their market-leading smartphone business in 2011 or any other extraordinary situation with enormous impact on Finland affects you, this does not automatically give you any extra rights.

Maaria
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by Maaria » Tue May 12, 2020 12:35 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:57 pm
Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pm
FinlandGirl wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:14 pm

Or the even shorter rule from 160(3).
You seem very concerned about not breaking the 158a(1)(2) rules that do not apply to you or your family.
Thanks. I was looking at the self employed bit. So if one year didn't pass yet in Finland, but same self employment activity was undertaken in another EU country prior to coming to Finland, does that make any difference for 158a(1)(1)?
The reason for these rules is that you should not be able to move to the EU country with the highest benefits without first contributing in this country. 1 year is very short for getting this indefinitely.
Maaria wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 11:35 pm
Also, if this unemployment is due to this extraordinary Covid-19 situation. Otherwise it was going well. Does that make any difference?
If COVID-19 or sanctions with Russia or the collapse of the Soviet Union or Nokia throwing away their market-leading smartphone business in 2011 or any other extraordinary situation with enormous impact on Finland affects you, this does not automatically give you any extra rights.
But doesn't the contribution in previous EU country carry over? They do ask for previous years income even if that includes income in other EU country. Also I was given option to keep paying into the social security of the previous EU country or here.

Also, they are not offering ongoing unemployment benefit. It will only be paid from March 16 to June 30. But you think it's better to stay away from it despite how difficult it is?

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue May 12, 2020 8:13 am

Maaria wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:35 am
Also, they are not offering ongoing unemployment benefit. It will only be paid from March 16 to June 30.
Ongoing unemployment benefits continue to exist as they did before.
Maaria wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:35 am
But you think it's better to stay away from it despite how difficult it is?
Why would you not take it?

betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by betelgeuse » Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 am

Maaria wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:35 am
But doesn't the contribution in previous EU country carry over? They do ask for previous years income even if that includes income in other EU country. Also I was given option to keep paying into the social security of the previous EU country or here.
It depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection. It could indirectly help, if they prevent the need for social assistance.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 am
It depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
Deportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by betelgeuse » Tue May 12, 2020 10:36 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 am
It depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
Deportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.
Not true. See section 168 of the Aliens Act.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:36 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:28 am
betelgeuse wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 9:31 am
It depends on the context. For calculation of benefits, they are relevant but they don’t give automatic deportation protection.
Deportation of EU citizens can only happen when they are a serious thread to public security.
Not true. See section 168 of the Aliens Act.
This is only applicable as far as permitted by EU legislation and court rulings.
The British High Court ruled deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets are a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how courts interpret the legislations.

There is also the practical issue that deportation alone would not remove the right that the deported EU citizen can take the next plane back and stay for 3 months in Finland.

betelgeuse
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by betelgeuse » Tue May 12, 2020 11:21 am

FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 am
This is only applicable as far as permitted by EU legislation and court rulings.
Yes with the note that the Aliens Act is regularly updated to keep up with EU acquis.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 am
The most common case is whether deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets is permitted. The British High Court ruled this is a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how impossible this can be.
Makes sense if they weren't applying for benefits. Especially as UK has never required registration of right of residence.
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 am
There is also the practical issue that deportation alone would not remove the right that the deported EU citizen can take the next plane back and stay for 3 months in Finland.
Yes and that's why entry bans can be issued. They can't be issued for deportations due to burden on the social services though.

FinlandGirl
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:43 am

Re: Unemployment Benefit for Self Employed due to Covid-19 and EU Right of Residence

Post by FinlandGirl » Tue May 12, 2020 11:36 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:21 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 am
The most common case is whether deportation of homeless EU citizens sleeping on the streets is permitted. The British High Court ruled this is a violation of the freedom of movement, which is not binding EU case law but gives a hint how impossible this can be.
Makes sense if they weren't applying for benefits.
Whether or which benefits have to be granted is often a disputed question.
Denied benefits do not imply deportation.

Finnish law is also fun when there is an income requirement for residence permits on family ties for spouses of non-EU citizens, but a few years ago the law was changed to make the spouse eligible for unemployment benefits.
Migri requires to have sufficient means of support, but it is not a problem for Migri when Kela anyhow pays benefits.


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