finland needs workers

[shrecher]

Why Finnish state shouldn't love guest workers, even we don't speak Finnish? Please answer!

Because you are source of future trouble.

This is not true. If it would be true, we would not have so easy work permit and pysyvä.

For reference, look at Germany and gastarbeiters from Turkey.
They never integrated, now they and their offspring are problem.

I'm not familiar with this issue. Never heard anything bad Turkey's. Many Germans come to Turkey for holiday. Turkey is actively looking to become EU member. Turkey is key partner.

France, immigrants and their offspring without proper integration rioting.

immigrants or guest workers? I guess, you mixing these terms.

Or medical profession. Yeah, that's what Finland needs. Doctors and nurses who can't tell if patient is complaining ulcer or hemorrhoids.

I think local people will very happy if doctors from UK, Germany, Thailand and other countries will come here to help locals. For many it would not be matter if the doctor doesn't speak Finnish. People who can't speak can wait for Finnish doctor, but many people can use the service of foreigns. This will unload the queue. This is not a joke. Philippines nurses are here already.

[shrecher]

I am a Senior Manager .... I have just come from a meeting at Nokia

May we know your name?

[sinikettu]

I give up the guy is beyond hope!

May we know your name?


Those who "know" me know it..those who dont..dont need to know.

[Tiwaz]

This is not true. If it would be true, we would not have so easy work permit and pysyvä.

It is true. Read news

I'm not familiar with this issue. Never heard anything bad Turkey's. Many Germans come to Turkey for holiday. Turkey is actively looking to become EU member. Turkey is key partner.

And turkish immigrants have proven problematic as they do not integrate and end up isolating themselves into ghettos. Creating mini-turkey. As they do not integrate, their options in worklife are more restricted, resulting in worse living conditions resulting in more social problems in the area. Not to mention having radically different cultural background.

immigrants or guest workers? I guess, you mixing these terms.

Guest workers have often come immigrants. It was thought in Germany that turkish gastarbeiters would leave. They didn't.

I think local people will very happy if doctors from UK, Germany, Thailand and other countries will come here to help locals. For many it would not be matter if the doctor doesn't speak Finnish. People who can't speak can wait for Finnish doctor, but many people can use the service of foreigns. This will unload the queue. This is not a joke. Philippines nurses are here already.

You think...

Think again. Finn does not want to perform mime act for doctor and pray and hope that this doctor somehow against all odds manages to figure out explanation correctly. Finn wants doctor who can be told what is wrong and tells back in plain words what will be done.

Doctor incapable of communicating is just an invitation for hoitovirhe. Which result in hoitovirheoikeudenkäynti which results in vahingonkorvaus hoitovirheestä. If effect, you would need another doctor to doublecheck everything this immigrant doctor does or you end up dumped into pile of crap when first patient dies because doctor can't speak same language as patient.

It would take an idiot to go to doctor who can't comprehend you.

"Minulla nuo peräpukamat vähän..."
"Ah, yes! Ulcer! Very bad very bad. We operate."

[shrecher]

It is true. Read news
And turkish immigrants have proven problematic

Links please.

[sinikettu]

I give up the guy is beyond hope!

Tiwaz....Älä hakkaa päätäsi seinään...

[sammy]

Please answer!

No, jos sinä viihdyt ja pelkkä työnteko sinänsä on sinulle riittävä sosiaalisen hyvinvoinnin lähde, niin mikäs siinä, hauskaa että näin on Tässä kuitenkin koetetaan etsiä vastauksia ongelmiin / tilanteisiin jotka koskevat muitakin kuin sinua (ja minua). Suurin osa minun tuntemistani maahanmuuttajista, mukaanlukien ne joiden äidinkieli on englanti, ovat opetelleet tai ovat opettelemassa suomea ... ja en usko olevani kovin väärässä, jos väitän että ne jotka eivät syystä tai toisesta osaa suomea todennäköisemmin kokevat tilanteen työnsaannin jne suhteen vaikeampana. Poikkeuksia toki on, esim just IT-alan paikat yrityksissä joissa puhutaan englantia... ja tietty täyspäiväiset marjanpoimijat

[Hank W.]

What you say would be valid 25 years ago, in time when Finland was closed country, but not now. Nowadays, Finland is part of EU (size and diversification is close to USSR). One of purpose of EU is free labor exchange. This goal is executing successfully. More foreigns people coming to work here, of course, they don't speak Finnish. Look around while you are Helsinki: probably every 10-th is non Finn. Whenever you agree with it or not, the whole world is globalizing, we are becoming part of the global infrastructure. People, work abroad, manufacture moves to other countries, other people come hre. Again, exchange of people, again more and more them here. I really can see the difference between Finland 10 years ago and now: amount of foreigns is steadily growing.

Well yes of course, the world is changing. but 25 years ago when we had the "closed system" we didn't have so much problem to have 3-4 people employed in "make-work". Government offices were teeming with pencil-pushers. You went to the bank and there were 15 ladies eagerly waiting for you. Then came the big recession and we got the cheese-slicer. All of a sudden everyone was unemployed, and those who still had their job had to do the same work with 5 people that had been done with 15 people. The 1990's was the era when you really had to become "quality" instead of "quantity". The "quantity" workers either forgot themselves into a bottle or had to re-educate themselves.

I don't think its as much of news that theres someone foreign at the workplace, but at the end of the day we've only had such an "immigration avalanche" the past 10 years. Things aren't going to change overnight - the government only *last year* actually drafted a policy paper regarding immigration... its only a few years we've had a proper immigration act and streamlined the bureaucracy. But you can't expect people to change their ways in a blink of an eye either. The change is rapid, but if we delve a bit into the "national character" Finns are pretty stubborn in a few things, and one thing is for sure if you go tell someone to change their attitude or ways, they'll double not change it just to make the point.

[shrecher]

Please answer!

No, jos sinä viihdyt ja pelkkä työnteko sinänsä on sinulle riittävä sosiaalisen hyvinvoinnin lähde, niin mikäs siinä, hauskaa että näin on Tässä kuitenkin koetetaan etsiä vastauksia ongelmiin / tilanteisiin jotka koskevat muitakin kuin sinua (ja minua). Suurin osa minun tuntemistani maahanmuuttajista, mukaanlukien ne joiden äidinkieli on englanti, ovat opetelleet tai ovat opettelemassa suomea ... ja en usko olevani kovin väärässä, jos väitän että ne jotka eivät syystä tai toisesta osaa suomea todennäköisemmin kokevat tilanteen työnsaannin jne suhteen vaikeampana. Poikkeuksia toki on, esim just IT-alan paikat yrityksissä joissa puhutaan englantia... ja tietty täyspäiväiset marjanpoimijat

Я абсолютно не вкупаю че тут написано.

[Hank W.]

Finland needs to provide language and assimilation programs for this influx of people. What they have now does not cut it, it isn't sufficient, and it is of poor quality.

Thats one thing I think everybody agrees on. problem is where to get the money/idea/realization to the MOL or MIGRI to start a total rehaul of the integration/language teaching system so as to provide a real incentive and a fast way to learn.

What is especially infuriating is ads in foreign trade and economy magazines, where Finland places ads telling that this is some kind of haven where all companies are hiring foreign workers, and something about "Finns speak such good English it will be an easy transition".

But hey that is that *positive thinking* everybody here wants to hear all the peachfuzz beyond pink glasses and not a negative old Hank

and they don't bother to pull from the pool of currently docile immigrants they already have here.

Which is what I've said, they don't have a "need for workers" they whine after illusionary perfect workers... they want to pick a few packets off the cargo plane and leave the rest on the tarmac.

[shrecher]

I don't think its as much of news that theres someone foreign at the workplace, but at the end of the day we've only had such an "immigration avalanche" the past 10 years. Things aren't going to change overnight - the government only *last year* actually drafted a policy paper regarding immigration... its only a few years we've had a proper immigration act and streamlined the bureaucracy. But you can't expect people to change their ways in a blink of an eye either. The change is rapid, but if we delve a bit into the "national character" Finns are pretty stubborn in a few things, and one thing is for sure if you go tell someone to change their attitude or ways, they'll double not change it just to make the point.

Yes, I agree, the process is slow. But sooner we will turn our mind positively to immigration, sooner we find the race, passport and language are not really barriers then sooner attitude of local people will change positively. If we, immigrants or guest workers, will repeatedly say: there is no option here to work for foreigns, unless get local diploma, learn fluently language, have -nen last name then we only slow down the integration process.

Btw, there is very good example where it happened: Singapore.

[sammy]

Я абсолютно не вкупаю че тут написано.

Yes, it is hard to understand words in a language you have no idea of - isn't it But no matter what you say, the fact remains that in many professions (not all!) you simply can not get by without knowing Finnish. A foreign language like English (and yes, in some areas of Finland also Russian - a language I sort of wish I could understand better, although I do not actually need it at all myself) is an asset, but to be honest I still think that you are underestimating the concept of "local/native" language. Finnish attitudes do need fixing in general, when it comes to immigration; however a country's native language is not an attitude, is not merely something that we "choose" to speak. Hope as you perhaps would, you can't really "fix" that part of the equation.

Since obviously you did not understand a bit of what I wrote, the gist was that these issues do not only concern you (or me); so let us not be too self-centred now. Even if you are happy enough in your non-Finnish learning situation, the same is not true of many other immigrants. Most of the immigrants I know do consider it important to try and learn the local language, their wish is to be able to work in the Finnish society in Finnish - and I suppose this kind of thinking is not so rare among immigrants as you perhaps would like us to believe I could be wrong, of course, but so far, almost all the immigrants that I've met and spoken with, and whom I know, have either been quite interested to learn Finnish, or learning it already - and in fact many have already progressed a lot on that road. And you know what - most of them have also found jobs.

[sammy]

Btw, in case anyone's interested:

Suomi tarvitsee kansainvälisiä osaajia! -keskustelutilaisuus 9.5. klo 13–16 Caisassa

Monikulttuurisuus asettaa Suomen ja koko maailman haasteen eteen. Tarvitsemme avointa dialogia
kansainvälistymisen ongelmista ja erilaisuudesta, jotta kansakuntamme menestyy myös tulevaisuudessa.
Tule mukaan keskustelemaan monikulttuurisuudesta sekä suvaitsevaisuuskasvatuksesta – yksi ihminen
voi tehdä suuria asioita!

Suomen Youth For Understanding -kansainvälisyyskasvatusjärjestön juhlaseminaari 9.5.2008 kello
13–16. Kulttuurikeskus Caisa, Mikonkatu 17 C, Helsinki.

Ohjelma

Seminaarin avaus
Maahanmuutto- ja eurooppaministeri Astrid Thors

Kansainvälisyyskasvatus suomalaisissa kouluissa
Opetusneuvos Leena Nissinen, Opetushallituksen oppimisen
ja hyvinvoinnin sekä monikulttuurisuuden kehittämisyksikkö

Monikulttuurinen nuorisotyö Helsingissä
Tutkija Veronika Honkasalo, Helsingin yliopisto

Suomi tarvitsee kansainvälisiä osaajia -paneelikeskustelu

Panelistit:

Hanna-Leena Hemming, kansanedustaja
Leena Nissinen, opetusneuvos
Veronika Honkasalo, tutkija
Maria Ruuska, valtiot. yo, Helsingin yliopisto

Coloured glasses -työpaja koulujen ja nuorisotyön tukena

Yhteenveto ja seminaarin päätössanat

Toiminnanjohtaja Elina Talonen-Lintunen,
Suomen Youth For Understanding

Seminaari on maksuton.
Ilmoittautuminen 5.5.2008 mennessä: [email protected]
Lisätietoja: toiminnanjohtaja Elina Talonen-Lintunen, p. 09-6226 1316.

[Hank W.]

suvaitsevaisuuskasvatuksesta

Ei saa sanoa puskaryssä, pitää sanoa pensasneuvostoliittolainen

[shrecher]

Since obviously you did not understand a bit of what I wrote, the gist was that these issues do not only concern you (or me); so let us not be too self-centred now. Even if you are happy enough in your non-Finnish learning situation, the same is not true of many other immigrants. Most of the immigrants I know do consider it important to try and learn the local language, their wish is to be able to work in the Finnish society in Finnish - and I suppose this kind of thinking is not so rare among immigrants as you perhaps would like us to believe I could be wrong, of course, but so far, almost all the immigrants that I've met and spoken with, and whom I know, have either been quite interested to learn Finnish, or learning it already - and in fact many have already progressed a lot on that road. And you know what - most of them have also found jobs.

To learn any language it is required two things: the motivation and free time. I don't see great motivation as I changing country each N years. Should I learn language of each country where I work? Next, free time. Other weeks I work 50 h: beside main work, I also have small business, which takes rest of my time. All remaining time I spend on my family, kids must see the father. Or should I learn the language instead?